We talked with Susan Latremoille about:

• The importance of integrating non-financial aspects into retirement planning to help advisors better serve pre-retirees and prepare them for their next chapter
• The various non-financial challenges retirees face in retirement
• Why advisors should consider appealing to the “non-financial” spouse in client couples

About Susan Latremoille:

Among her extensive credentials and achievements, Susan Latremoille is a Certified Professional Retirement Coach and the partner and co-founder of Next Chapter Lifestyle Advisors. Observing a growing need to redefine retirement and embrace a broader vision for the life stage, Susan shares how the non-financial side — not just having enough savings — is a significant predictor of success in one's next chapter. A published author and sought-after keynote speaker with over 35 years of experience as a wealth advisor and firm owner, Susan shares her insights through coaching, webinars, and content designed to help advisors effectively reach and serve this dynamic demographic.

Featured Resources 

• Susan on LinkedIn
• Marianne on LinkedIn
• Next Chapter Lifestyle Advisors
• 9 Steps to a RichLife Retirement by Susan Latremoille
• Your Happiness Portfolio for Retirement: It's Not About the Money! By Marianne Oehser

Enjoyed This? You’ll Also Love:

• Supporting Financial Professionals and Their Aging Clients
• Enhancing Advisor Success: How to Add Value Beyond the Numbers Through Human Connection
• Providing a Human-First Value Add for Clients and Advisors

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Full Audio Transcript:

00:00:00 - 00:07:13

Lauren Hong

Right. Well, Susan, thank you for joining us today.

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00:07:15 - 00:11:25

Susan Latremoille

It's a pleasure to be with you, Lauren. And I can't wait to have this chat with you. 

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00:11:25 - 00:24:18

Lauren Hong

So, Susan, for those of you who don't know, it's Susan Latremoille. I think I got that right. She is the co-founder and president of Next Chapter Lifestyle Advisors, if I got that right as well.

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00:24:20 - 00:26:10

Susan Latremoille

Partner. Yes.

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00:26:13 - 00:56:00

Lauren Hong

Perfect. So we were just chatting about all things in this industry, a little bit of NAPFA and kids and conversations that are happening. And you have this unique bend around lifestyle retirement planning, which we're going to talk more about today. And I'm really excited to sort of dive in and hear a little bit more about what you're seeing from a more practical level of how to really reach a retiree or pre-retiree audience.

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00:56:12 - 01:13:19

Lauren Hong

And also just how to make your operations procedures and communications really fit this demographic. But before we get into all of that, I want to hand it over to you. And if you could just share a little bit more about your background. How did you get into this space? Why this demographic? Tell us a little bit more, please.

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01:13:21 - 01:35:16

Susan Latremoille

Sure. Happy to do that, Lauren. Well, actually, I was a financial advisor for 38 years, so I worked at three different firms over my 38 years and built a successful practice, primarily working with high-net-worth and ultra-high-net-worth clients. And I thought my job was done as a financial advisor when my clients had enough money to retire.

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01:35:29 - 01:59:08

Susan Latremoille

And then I started to notice as they sold their businesses or stepped away from their careers or professions, many of them were not as happy as they thought they would be. And here I was, I prided myself on being that holistic financial advisor, and yet I'd completely ignored that. There was a whole other side to a retirement planning than just having enough money to retire.

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01:59:11 - 02:26:11

Susan Latremoille

And what really brought it home to me was a particular client. His name was Alan, a very successful business owner. It was a family furniture business, and he would always talk about how he couldn't wait to retire. He had a beautiful home in a gated community in Florida. He was an avid golfer. And so his dream, his retirement dream when he sold out of the company, was to go to Florida for the winter and play golf.

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02:26:13 - 02:45:23

Susan Latremoille

So I wished them well in November, so idyllic, and he left and I saw him when he came back. We had our usual check-up meeting when he came back from Florida. And honestly, I was expecting to see this tanned, happy, and really bright guy.

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02:45:26 - 03:07:13

Susan Latremoille

And I couldn't believe it. He was so down. He said to me, I'm so bored with the same guys I play golf with every day. I'm so frustrated with my golf game. I thought I'd be a crackerjack by now. And it actually has not improved and I've injured my shoulder. I've played every day and it was too much for my body.

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03:07:13 - 03:33:27

Susan Latremoille

So instead of being this happy and excited and really positive man, he was actually pretty depressed and down and disillusioned. And I started to see this pattern play out over and over again, especially with people who were really high achievers, business owners, and professionals who had reached the pinnacle and so on. And I thought, there's something wrong here.

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03:33:27 - 03:57:06

Susan Latremoille

Why doesn't the financial services industry know anything about this phenomena or do anything? That's what really prompted me to sell my practice, which I did. I didn't want to stay in competition with other advisors, so I sold the practice entirely to focus this next stage of my career on the non-financial side of retirement planning. And so that's my story.

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03:57:06 - 04:06:21

Susan Latremoille

That's how I got here. And it was really all prompted with what I saw with clients when I started to look beyond do they have enough money to retire comfortably?

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04:06:23 - 04:16:27

Lauren Hong

So tell me a little bit more about what you are doing to support advisors or specific advisors you're working with, or are you working with their clients? I'd love to hear a little bit more about that.

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04:16:29 - 04:42:22

Susan Latremoille

We actually work with both advisors and their clients, so I'll outline more specifically what we do with advisors. We created an advisor program, a Next Chapter advisor program. And we call our advisors in the program First Movers because they really are these thought leaders, these advisors who want to expand beyond just talking to their clients about money and doing financial planning, investments, insurance.

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04:42:24 - 05:03:05

Susan Latremoille

They are people who say, I want to look after my clients from a broader perspective. I care about their lives. I care about how well they fare throughout their retirement journey. So those are the types of advisors who resonate with the work we do. So specifically for advisors, we have a number of things.

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05:03:05 - 05:27:13

Susan Latremoille

First of all, within our advisor program, we teach them how to have a different conversation with their clients because quite often advisors are all trained to talk about markets and the economy and interest rates and portfolios. But to me, that's not what the clients want to talk about. They want to talk about what's going on in their lives, what what wakes them up at two in the morning, what they're excited about, and so on.

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05:27:15 - 06:03

Susan Latremoille

So we have a training program for financial advisors to change that conversation. And we use a template for that guided conversation called your Next Chapter Scorecard. So that's one of the things. We also provide content for financial advisors that they can put in their newsletters or blogs or simply articles to send out to their clients. Instead of putting recipes in their newsletter, they put on a thought leadership piece about some aspect of retirement from a non-financial perspective.

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06:17 - 06:27:07

Susan Latremoille

In addition to that, we do webinars for financial advisors’ clients. It started in COVID when it was very popular to have virtual webinars. And we've continued to this day to do both virtual and in-person webinars and workshops for advisors’ clients. We have six topics we speak on, and I can outline those if you want to go into more detail.

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06:27:14 - 07:09

Susan Latremoille

But the webinars are a great way for advisors to engage their clients in a conversation that isn't just about money and markets. So those are some of the key highlights. We also have a bit of a community of advisors in that we meet about eight times a year. And the advisor roundtable, we usually have a guest speaker and then the advisors have a chance to interact with each other because they all are like minded in that they are not just thinking about product and process.

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07:12 - 07:03:04

Lauren Hong

And are these roundtables virtual? 

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07:03:04 - 07:25:16

Susan Latremoille

Yes. They take place on a Monday afternoon at 4:30 Eastern time. They're 45 minutes. They start on time and we record them. All of them are recorded and they're on the member section of our website. So when an advisor signs up for the program, they get access to all the prerecorded roundtables we've done over the past few years.

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07:25:23 - 07:45:00

Lauren Hong

That's wonderful. So I just want to go back to what you said a little bit earlier about the webinars. We've seen webinars be a really fantastic tool, especially for this retiree, pre-retiree group, especially topics like thinking about being a consultant after I retire or what that next phase of life looks like.

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07:45:02 - 08:03:10

Lauren Hong

And I'd be really curious to hear from you. And we'll have to link — I'm assuming you've got maybe the topics on your website or what have you linked to that as well. How do advisors’ clients respond to those webinars and is advisor on the webinar as well?

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08:03:10 - 08:07:00

Lauren Hong

I'd love to hear a little bit more about that component of your business.

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08:07:02 - 08:31:16

Susan Latremoille

Sure. So our webinars are usually under an hour in length and depending on compliance departments, they can be interactive. But many compliance departments don't allow audience participation. And they come in two formats. One is the advisors can purchase a prerecorded webinar that they can link to their site. They can send it out, they can put on a live event using a recorded webinar.

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08:31:23 - 09:02:09

Susan Latremoille

And the other is a live, virtual webinar where there can be interaction. And we want to make it really easy for the advisors to put these on for their clients. So we provide them with the webinar solution guide. And it has everything in it that they need to put on the webinar. We give them the social media assets, the save the date, the template for the invitation, hosting instructions, scripts, and everything.

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09:02:09 - 09:36:27

Susan Latremoille

So the idea is that it doesn't take a lot of the advisor’s time. They can hand it off to a marketing person on their team or an admin person on their team, or outsource it to do all the logistics. And then the advisor just shows up to host the webinar and then follows up and some advisors have had tremendous success with that in both reaching the non-financial spouse in their client couples as well as using social media and other means of spreading the word to attract new people to their practice.

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09:37:08 - 09:40:26

Susan Latremoille

I can talk about the topics if you want.

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09:40:26 - 09:46:05

Lauren Hong

Maybe hit on a few you think would be interesting to hear a little bit more about here.

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09:46:08 - 10:17:11

Susan Latremoille

So there are a series of six and there are two general ones. Three Secrets to a Happy Retirement is one general one and Your Happiness Portfolio for Retirement. So I can elaborate on that — our whole happiness portfolio concept. But then the other four are for specific audiences. So we have one for couples because we know the divorce rate — and we call it gray divorce — is very high when people retire and some go their separate ways.

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10:17:11 - 10:42:25

Susan Latremoille

So how to prevent retirement from ruining your relationship? We have one for women because women face some different issues in retirement than men. And one of the other webinar topics is called Flying Solo. And this is for people who are divorced, widowed, never married, not partnered with anyone. So what's it like to retire and fly solo at this stage of life?

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10:42:27 - 11:06:04

Susan Latremoille

And then one that's really popular with business owners and it's called The Retirement Challenges of High Achievers, Business Owners, and Workaholics. A lot of business owners really relate to that one because for many of them, work is all they know. And so they often have a much more difficult time with this transition.

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11:06:04 - 11:09:26

Susan Latremoille

Like my client, Alan, who I talked about a few minutes ago. 

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11:10:03 - 11:31:18

Lauren Hong

So just for folks who are listening who may not be as familiar, I know you shared a little bit earlier about your background personally and how you got into this space. How are these webinars coming together? Is it paired with your background, or are there others on the team that are putting together this content? Where is that coming from to really make it as robust as possible?

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11:31:20 - 12:02:07

Susan Latremoille

So that's a good question. So my business partner is Marianne Oehser, and she has been a retirement coach for more than a decade. She has done a lot of the research and investigation into this whole phenomena. She started her career as a relationship coach, and that's what led her to really delve into that issue of gray divorce with couples, because she she was living in Naples, Florida, at the time, which is a mecca for retirees and older people.

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12:02:07 - 12:37:22

Susan Latremoille

The couples that were coming to her were often having some challenges in their relationship. So that's where she started with relationship and then got into retirement coaching. So she's the expert on content and does a lot of our writing and research and delivery of the client-facing webinars. My work because of my own background as a financial advisor is more working with financial advisors and their firms, although at times we do overlap with each other and I can present the webinars too but she's really the person doing that.

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12:38:00 - 13:10

Lauren Hong

That's great to have a little bit of that context too. And you're so familiar too, with the space having been in that seat as you lived it. So I want to shift topics a little bit. You have talked a lot about the sort of services you offer, some of these virtual options for advisors and their clients, webinars and such.

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13:13 - 13:22:06

Lauren Hong

Let’s hear a little bit more from your perspective if there is a firm that's really thinking about and perhaps targets this demographic of retirees and retirees, how old are they? Are there any kind of best practices to make that onboarding experience seamless? Once they've been onboarded? Regular drips. I'd love to hear a little bit more about things that sort of work.

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13:22:06 - 13:30:11

Lauren Hong

Or things advisors should be thinking about that makes sense to kind of bake into their day-to-day checkpoints for this demographic.

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13:30:14 - 13:53:11

Susan Latremoille

So I think in terms of onboarding, it all starts with the discovery meeting. And coming back to the my mention of the scorecard, so many advisors in their discovery meetings will talk about themselves, their credentials, their team, their approach to money management, etc. And they don't spend enough time with the client speaking.

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13:53:13 - 14:12:22

Susan Latremoille

So what I discovered, actually about 20 years ago, was if I did a discovery meeting and didn't talk very much but got the clients and in that case a prospect talking, at the end of the meeting, typically they'd say, I think I can trust you. And boy, this was only an hour we were together and you know so much about me.

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14:12:22 - 14:34:17

Susan Latremoille

Well, guess what? You did the talking, not me. But to get them to open up and talk, especially if you've never met them before, is a special skill. And that's what we teach advisors — how to have that kind of conversation that really gets at what's in their hearts, what keeps them awake at night, as I mentioned, and yet doesn't sound invasive or digging.

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14:34:17 - 14:58:12

Susan Latremoille

So I used to never actually talk about money in those meetings, in those first meetings. And I had a good success rate of converting those prospects to being a client because I was different than the conversations other advisors were having, which was, look at me, look at me, and how great I am and where the market is, where the S&P 500 is going, or the latest fund or whatever.

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14:58:14 - 15:18:26

Susan Latremoille

And so taking the focus away from product and process and the whole thing and focusing on the individual was really the key to engaging those people. So I think it's also a great way — it's often the non-financial spouse who really is in the background making the decision about who they work with as an advisor.

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15:18:29 - 15:35:12

Susan Latremoille

And this stuff really appeals to that person who just doesn't understand financial and never really wants to dig into it. They light up and it really becomes a much more balanced conversation than just one-sided.

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15:35:14 - 16:01:00

Lauren Hong

That's great; it's such good insight. When someone becomes a client, are there any recommendations you have as far as touchpoints? Do you see what the demographic responds better to? I know you talk about webinars. I've often seen in-person events like seminars or luncheons work really well just because there is that flexibility of schedule typically.

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16:01:21 - 16:19:26

Lauren Hong

I'd love to hear a little bit more about even the questions of paper. Do I print leave behinds and give that to folks? How is that received? A lot of the time, especially for a younger demographic, we're often saying, you don't even need the paper, just have digital versions and have a few printed copies as a backup.

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16:19:26 - 16:25:22

Lauren Hong

I’d love to hear your thoughts on that as you carry forward that relationship with clients.

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16:25:24 - 16:55:06

Susan Latremoille

Well, I think there's nothing that replaces people getting together. And what I used to do in my own practice was have lunch and learn meetings where we'd have a speaker but it wouldn't be so monopolized by the speaker that people at the table couldn't just have a conversation with each other. So I love a roundtable format with around four couples or eight people at the table strategically placed, and sometimes prospects mixed in with the existing clients.

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16:55:06 - 17:14:06

Susan Latremoille

Because if a prospect is kind of sitting on the fence, they're not sure where they're going, who they're going to land up with as an advisor — by putting them in with your best clients, your raving fan clients, often at the end of the event, they'll say, oh, they deal with so-and-so. You know, I'd like to be part of that group.

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17:14:06 - 17:38:03

Susan Latremoille

And then they get closed very seamlessly that way. Also, people like to be in community. And during COVID, this was one of the hardest parts for so many people, the isolation. And often when people have retired, they are cut off from their colleagues, the people they used to work with. And many are really struggling and trying to build these new social connections.

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17:38:06 - 18:02:19

Susan Latremoille

By bringing like-minded people together or like-stage people together, they often find new friends or people who are going through some of the same aspects of their life journey, whether it be comparing notes on grandchildren or how to rewire themselves, or what kind of consulting they're doing, or even travel or finding meaning at this stage of life.

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18:02:19 - 18:06:02

Susan Latremoille

It can lead to some really worthwhile conversations.

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18:06:11 - 18:24:15

Lauren Hong

Such good insights. I think we could be here for a while. So, I do want to ask if you have any other final thoughts for folks who are listening or places you think it would be good to go to learn a little bit more. I’d love to hear if I haven't touched on anything you want to make sure you cover.

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18:24:24 - 18:46:04

Susan Latremoille

Sure. Well, both my partner and I have written books and published books. My partner Marianne Oehser's book is “Your Happiness Portfolio® for Retirement — It's Not About the Money.” Not that the money isn't critically important but the book is not about the money. And she lays out in the book the essence of building a happiness portfolio for retirement.

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18:46:07 - 19:11:28

Susan Latremoille

So we use a portfolio analogy because it's like a portfolio that has different asset classes. So your life portfolio should also have different asset classes. So we break it down into eight areas of life, all non-financial, that are really important for people to plan for their next chapter. And we don't really love the word retirement but there isn't a better word in the English language for it, other than next chapter.

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19:12:07 - 19:33:00

Susan Latremoille

And that leads to my book, which is the latest book I've written, which is “9 Steps to a RichLife Retirement — Live Well, Give Back, Leave a Legacy.” And that all came from my richlife philosophy, which actually started many, many years ago when my clients would be so eager to earn that extra half percent on their portfolio.

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19:33:00 - 20:01:01

Susan Latremoille

And then I'd ask them the question, well, what's all this money for? There was this disconnect between the money and the purpose of the money. So to me, this whole richlife thinking is that combination, that integration of the wealth to do what you want but also having a purpose for the wealth. So, our books are on Amazon and they are in a sense guides for people and they make great giveaways for advisors.

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20:01:01 - 20:23:25

Susan Latremoille

A number of our advisors buy the books and then hand them out to clients. It's a small investment and it resonates well with that demographic.  So of course we're on LinkedIn. It's a great way to connect. But also our website is nextchapterlifestyleadvisors.com. And you can always reach me by email, susan@nextchapterlifestyleadvisors.com.

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20:24:03 - 20:56:07

Susan Latremoille

So there are a number of ways to interact with us. But we love hearing from financial advisors. And we love hearing from financial advisors who say, I have a client who needs your help because there's nothing better for a client than to help them guide them in the right direction of building that happiness portfolio, which then the meat of that can go back to the financial advisor so they can do a better job doing the financial plan once they know what the life plan of that client entails.

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20:56:23 - 21:18:21

Lauren Hong

Yeah, it's a full circle win. Well, Susan, thank you so much for your time and also for the work you do. I love that you've literally walked in the shoes, right? You've been an advisor. And you're also taking that work and then helping to support the advisor community but also other clients of that community as well.

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21:18:21 - 21:29:06

Lauren Hong

So thank you for the good work you do. And I'm excited. We'll make sure to link to your book, and website as well. Books, I should say, and website as well. So thank you again for your time today.

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21:29:08 - 21:34:24

Susan Latremoille

My pleasure, Lauren.

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We talked with Jody Jacobson about:

• Common time management and focus challenges financial advisors experience
• Why time management struggles could signal growth, and why it’s essential to sustain success
• Why successful, healthy time management practices are deeply personal — not a one-size-fits-all approach

About Jody Jacobson:

Jody Jacobson, PhD, is the co-founder and CEO of the Human Skills Institute™. As a brain-based consultant, coach, and trainer with over 20 years of experience, she helps financial advisors align their business, marketing, and life strategies to their unique strengths and values so they can sustain long-term growth and experience the joys of creating greater profitability and meaning for their clients and themselves. Whether they want to become an owner-leader, build a higher-functioning team, hire the right people, or stop giving away their time and expertise to the wrong clients, she helps financial services professionals change their mindset and achieve their biggest goals with confidence and ease. Never one-size-fits-all, Jody tailors her approach to each client's unique needs, thinking, workstyles, and goals.

Featured Resources 

• The Human Skills Institute
• Jody Jacobson on LinkedIn
• Email Jody for free time management resources or to schedule a complimentary 30-minute call

Enjoyed This? You’ll Also Love:

• Trends and Strategic Steps for Growth for Advisory Firms with Jake DeKinder of Dimensional Fund Advisors
• How Lifestyle and Solo Advisor Firm Owners Can Grow Business Intentionally with Natalie Bergsma
• Using a Coach Mindset to Unlock Your Full Leadership Potential
• How to Align Your Values with Your Career and Service Model

‍

Full Audio Transcript:

00:00:00 - 00:07:09

Lauren Hong

Jody, thank you for joining us today.

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00:07:12 - 00:10:07

Jody Jacobson

Oh, thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here.

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00:10:10 - 00:32:12

Lauren Hong

I'm looking forward to hearing from you and unpacking this topic around time management and strategies. You have a dynamic group background, are talking with FPA Group here in San Diego soon, and have written for Native Advisor magazine. I know the list goes on and on. Why don't I just turn it over to you to share a little bit more about your background and your day-to-day work?

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00:32:14 - 00:54:19

Jody Jacobson

Oh well, thank you so much. Firstly, I just want to say I really appreciate you inviting me. I've looked at some of the topics you've had podcasts on and they're not only interesting, they're really spot on, kind of intriguing, and a little bit different. So I'm really looking forward to a fun conversation.

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00:54:21 - 01:21:16

Jody Jacobson

So I'm a coach and a consultant. I primarily work with financial advisors and advisory leaders, and much of what I do is helping them invest their time and their mental bandwidth on really high value outcomes. And a lot of this involves helping them make the best decisions for right now and for the future.

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01:21:18 - 01:44:15

Jody Jacobson

As a former client of mine once said — I don't know if he made this up but I'll give him credit for it — he believes in making the best decision you can right now and then making it the best decision. And I thought that was absolutely brilliant. And it's a nice way to think about time management.

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01:44:18 - 02:09:23

Jody Jacobson

So some of the kinds of things I work with people on are stay or break away. And the first question I ask is have you ever done any marketing to get your own clients. And then it goes on from there. They may want to attract more ideal clients or get the courage to ask for better base pay where they are.

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02:10:08 - 02:41:18

Jody Jacobson

They need help managing a change or transition, implementing a succession plan, hiring the right people, and more. And a lot of it really starts with getting super clear about how to spend your time and how to focus and all of that. And I learned a lot of this, of course, through my voluminous academic training, and probably more so just through life experience and from my clients.

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02:42:16 - 03:11:20

Jody Jacobson

I've been on my own since I was 18, and I've had lots of different jobs. I've had to juggle my time, working, going to school, getting my degrees. I sort of fell into a career as an internal growth consultant and eventually became a chief information officer building data systems to be able to collect market research, really understand what your clients need and want that’s invaluable.

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03:12:16 - 03:33:16

Jody Jacobson

And most leaders are really great at setting, creating goals. Planners are great at planning. And they're also human beings. And so implementing them is a challenge while dealing with everything else. And I've had to juggle a lot of plates in my own life.

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03:34:04 - 03:46:28

Jody Jacobson

And so I think I'm pretty good at it, helping people to get clear about what they do and what they really shouldn't be doing and to keep on course with that.

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03:47:01 - 04:13:20

Lauren Hong

I really appreciate that because you've had something like a diverse amount of not only work experiences but then the education to pair those together, which I would assume would create a very relatable relationship with those you're working with. You can take more of the academic meets practical route there. So with that, time management — where do we even start, right?

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04:13:20 - 04:31:11

Lauren Hong

Because it's one of those things, like what you're saying, where you take your time is a reflection of your business growth, your hiring, your so many things, right? And it's easy to get stuck on something you might just really enjoy doing but you shouldn't be doing.

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04:31:12 - 04:53:24

Lauren Hong

So talk to us about that. What are common time management challenges others have? And I know this is not for any title, right? So it can really be a time management challenge if you're the head of a company, owner of a firm, or if you are in a CEO role or a new-hire as an advisor, whoever it might be.

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04:56:06 - 05:27:08

Jody Jacobson

That's such a great observation. And a really core principle of time management is forgiving yourself. And it's hard for everybody. I find being really ethical and hardworking is so central to being a great financial planner, especially fiduciary fee-only planners. It's hard to separate personal and professional.

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05:27:08 - 05:51:18

Jody Jacobson

And I know we'll talk a little bit more about that. So really, yes, it affects everybody. And if you think you're the only one, I'm saying this: everybody listening, including ourselves, is a reminder. If you think you're the only one who struggles managing time because everybody else looks sort of cool as a cucumber, a lot of us are very good at acting.

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05:52:25 - 06:24:04

Jody Jacobson

Acting as if everything is fine when it isn't necessarily so. It's a human. It's a human dilemma. These struggles with time management are really a normal and predictable outcome, especially of growth. So the irony or the paradox of it is if you're struggling with time management, it's possible you're doing a whole lot of things right.

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06:24:06 - 06:57:10

Jody Jacobson

You just may be over-pressing yourself to do everything all at once instead of chunking it out and sequencing it. And when there's growth, there's more of everything. There's more everything to manage. More demands, more distractions, more decisions. Just more to do, more to track, more people to coordinate with. So truly mastering time management is a critical success factor for doing almost anything else.

‍

06:57:12 - 07:06:21

Jody Jacobson

And for sustaining growth and success. And there's the Jon Kabat-Zinn book. I have to confess, I didn't read the book but I love the title.

‍

07:07:17 - 07:31:06

Jody Jacobson

I think it's “Wherever You Go, There You Are.” So as you grow to become a firm owner, if you're a founder, if you're an intern, if you're becoming an associate, wherever you go, there you are. This doesn't change.

‍

07:31:08 - 07:33:24

Lauren Hong

Regardless of if you're ready for it or not. 

‍

07:33:27 - 07:35:15

Jody Jacobson

Oh, God, are you ever?

‍

07:35:22 - 07:56:27

Lauren Hong

I know. There's a CEO we've worked with —  completely started as a small team. Grew the company to over 200 employees, and will look at everybody and say, this is the first time I've ever been the CEO. And I'm still learning too. And I just really appreciated that humbleness and just the reality of where you are, right?

‍

07:56:27 - 08:27:14

Lauren Hong

And being able to be open to that feedback or what have you. So with that, all of us, right? We're trying to climb ladders. We've got personal challenges at home. We might be juggling little ones, aging parents, so many things you know and/or interfere with people's lives. How do you draw that boundary — the time management — between home and and also the day-to-day?

‍

08:29:15 - 08:56:14

Jody Jacobson

So for those of us who do work we really love, it's hard to draw the boundary because you want to be able to pour yourself into your work. And in your work it can be very creative and it can occupy other aspects of life. I think the real key is to have a way of always knowing what to focus on.

‍

08:56:16 - 09:24:03

Jody Jacobson

And always vetting your time. I have two wonderful questions I love for that — one I learned when I worked a lot with quality improvement and the other I just sort of made up. So there's a fabulous question. It's called the so what question? So if you're clear about what you want to accomplish and you know why you want to accomplish it, there's a metaphor for that.

‍

09:24:03 - 09:34:15

Jody Jacobson

It's about making sure at all times your ladder is pointed against the right wall because you climb up that ladder and basically you can get somewhere but it's not where you wanted to get to.

‍

09:34:16 - 09:35:09

Lauren Hong

Yes, yes.

‍

09:35:11 - 10:06:29

Jody Jacobson

It's just like numbers. You can crunch numbers and you could pass a test crunching all the numbers. But if they're irrelevant, you've wasted all your time crunching the numbers, that kind of thing. So always being very clear about so what? Why am I doing this? And then the other question I like to add has a little bit to do with ego: why am I doing this? Am I trying to prove something to somebody?

‍

10:06:29 - 10:07:14

Lauren Hong

That's right.

‍

10:07:15 - 10:11:20

Jody Jacobson

Do you really need to be doing that? 

‍

10:11:20 - 10:12:13

Lauren Hong

What’s the bigger picture?

‍

10:13:10 - 10:39:14

Jody Jacobson

Yeah. And it doesn't matter. Or does it matter now. Will it matter soon or might it never matter. Because if you set really good goals and you take a really systemic kind of approach to those goals, chances are if you know how to prioritize the goals — I'm always helping my clients do that.

‍

10:39:14 - 10:54:29

Jody Jacobson

What if I solve this one issue or if I do this one thing, what other five or 10 other problems is it going to solve for me that I don't have to then spend my time on? 

‍

10:55:01 - 11:18:12

Lauren Hong

Yes, yes. So so brilliant. It makes me think of Gantt charts. You've got the critical pathway to success, right? If we do this, it's going to move the needle and push all these other things this way. But what is that actual critical pathway for decision-making? So then how do you make sure you align strategic efforts, manpower, resources, so on and so forth, to that objective?

‍

11:18:14 - 11:48:14

Jody Jacobson

Exactly. So there's the what will it take question. And you know what has gotten you there in the past. I have some methods for identifying how to approach a similar task with skills that have worked for you before because we all have certain personality preferences, thinking style preferences, work style preferences.

‍

11:48:19 - 11:58:24

Jody Jacobson

A lot of people have taken the Kolbe, CliftonStrengths, Myers-Briggs. Whenever I start with a client, I give them a whole battery of that stuff.

‍

11:58:28 - 12:13

Lauren Hong

That's great.

‍

12:15 - 12:17:22

Jody Jacobson

Because then you know what's going to work for one person for time management isn't going to work for another. And that's my big issue with a lot of the books that have been written on time management. I find they're helpful for people who are already sort of good at it, want to get better at it.

‍

12:19:06 - 12:44:06

Jody Jacobson

But the thing is that issues with time management sit there sort of like the tip of the iceberg of a whole bunch of structural and personality dynamics. And if you just approach time management from a time management method that some guru has proposed and then it doesn't work for you, it's sort of like dieting.

‍

12:44:12 - 13:11:23

Jody Jacobson

Time management is a lot like dieting. And time management books are a lot like diet books now. Yeah, you may disagree with me about that. And if you found something that works for you, I'm all for it. The thing is so many planners who perpetually struggle with this have just never found the system that really suits their way of learning, their way of thinking, the culture of the firm they're in, their clients, and all of that.

‍

13:12:02 - 13:31:04

Jody Jacobson

So it's really important to understand what works for you. Because just like with diet and with exercise and other important habits, the best thing to do is what works.

‍

13:31:06 - 13:54:01

Lauren Hong

So it's interesting. We see inside the C-suite a lot, as you do. And in the example I was giving earlier about that CEO who would say, okay, guys, this is my first time doing this, is also the same person from a time management perspective that I've seen no questions asked.

‍

13:54:01 - 14:17:07

Lauren Hong

Dropping the kids off to school, being there for soccer practice. These things are critical from a value perspective. So it's sort of asking the question earlier about that personal-professional. And so I think to your point, there's not a one-size-fits-all formula. I'm sure part of it is like coming down to what's your personal type, what are your values, that sort of thing.

‍

14:17:14 - 14:30:06

Lauren Hong

I’d love to hear a little bit more about how you work through that process to find the right fit for someone to help and how do I say, create that architecture for their time management?

‍

14:30:08 - 14:46:19

Jody Jacobson

Oh, beautiful. Beautiful question. If you could indulge me, let me just mention a few of the kinds of struggles I see planners having with time management and then come back. If that’s okay.

‍

14:46:22 - 14:47:24

Lauren Hong

That would be fine.

‍

14:47:26 - 15:10:03

Jody Jacobson

Okay. So one of the things that happens is everybody wants more clients. And a lot of people will lead with marketing and they get more clients but they haven't built the infrastructure to be able to serve those clients. They don’t have the staffing. And so they're really not ready for it.

‍

15:10:19 - 15:43:15

Jody Jacobson

And that creates chaos. And what ends up happening frequently, more often than you would think, is that's the point where people quit. Because nobody likes to work in a chaotic, disorganized firm; just nobody likes that. So you can end up not being able to sustain your brand identity because you lead with marketing and selling but you haven't built the capacity to deliver.

‍

15:43:17 - 15:47:23

Jody Jacobson

Yeah. Then you degrade your brand, which is counterproductive.

‍

15:48:07 - 15:53:15

Lauren Hong

You have people falling out on the back end, right? You aren’t able to keep clients and take really good care of your current clients.

‍

15:53:18 - 16:15:14

Jody Jacobson

Exactly. Yep. I think about as a kid, I loved Aesop's Fables, especially the one about the tortoise and the hare because I always felt kind of like a tortoise. And with time management, what we're talking about is going slow and methodical on the front end because then you can go really fast.

‍

16:15:15 - 16:17:21

Lauren Hong

That's right. That's exactly right.

‍

16:17:23 - 16:33:11

Jody Jacobson

And so that's where all of this is. That's why it's important to know your own personal style, what works for you, what doesn't. Because what ends up happening is I see a lot of planners who are stressed. They're not sleeping enough. They go to work during the day. They take care of the kids in the evening.

‍

16:33:11 - 16:57:23

Jody Jacobson

When their kids go to sleep, they go back to work. And so they're dreadfully sleep deprived. It creates more conflicts at work. Failure to grow because you're so busy fighting fires and dealing with the tyranny of the urgent that you never do the marketing. if you're a person who really doesn't like to do marketing.

‍

16:57:25 - 17:38:02

Jody Jacobson

But there are a million reasons to do everything else first. Because for a lot of people, marketing is really scary, and it involves asking people. It involves having confidence to assert your worth and there's so many other issues. I see a lot of women who feel like if they partitioned their schedule and asked people to honor that, they've blocked off some back office time and specific client days they're going to be seen as the B-word and there are a lot of women in the industry who started as interns.

‍

17:38:02 - 18:01:29

Jody Jacobson

So they have to change their own internal narrative about how they think about themselves. And it's so many other challenges. And so these really make it harder because they reinforce a lot of false beliefs about growth and productivity. We get stuck in that cycle of just put your nose to the grindstone and work harder and longer.

‍

18:02:01 - 18:36:29

Jody Jacobson

It just doesn't work. So everybody who's listening knows where they get hung up. So if I didn't include you in that list, you know where you fit. So again, for people who really love what they do and spend a whole lot of time training and interning and all of that, it's sort of artificial to suggest there's a clear boundary between personal and professional.

‍

18:37:02 - 19:17:01

Jody Jacobson

It's more about protecting your focus. It's more about learning how to stay focused on outcomes in a clear and compassionate way. And, so if, for example, if somebody needs your help, you don't have to drop everything that minute. It helps to set aside business hours, office hours or it's very helpful to say would it work for you to talk in half hour?

‍

19:17:04 - 19:52:10

Jody Jacobson

So again, I just want to be clear, I see time management as an absolutely critical self-management skill that benefits you personally and professionally. It's a core skill. And if a person doesn't have the confidence to assert good, healthy boundaries around their time, chances are they're not asserting them around anything else.

‍

19:54:17 - 20:08:00

Jody Jacobson

So did I answer your question about the personal and the professional? 

‍

20:08:02 - 20:24:22

Lauren Hong

Yes. So with that, though, you've got the personal, professional side of things. Are there any mindset tips you have either for how to best start your day, your week ahead? Just to be able to get into that because sometimes we get like this running start right where you have this plan in place.

‍

20:24:28 - 20:42:11

Lauren Hong

We've blocked up time. We've done whatever fits right for us. Or maybe it's lessons learned from the past that seem to work really well. But how do you keep that momentum going? Sometimes it's really easy to have a great Monday through Wednesday, and then you’re just fried.

‍

20:42:11 - 20:46:25

Lauren Hong

So what thoughts do you have around that?

‍

20:46:28 - 20:58:21

Jody Jacobson

Well, that's a great example. So let's assume you're a person who typically has a whole lot of energy Monday or Tuesday. Wednesday. You've already identified…

‍

20:58:24 - 20:59:15

Lauren Hong

…the challenge.

‍

20:59:19 - 21:27:07

Jody Jacobson

Well, you could look at it as a challenge. You could also look at it as a strategy. Now if you are a person who has the most energy Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, then schedule your most creative tasks, your most challenging tasks on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. And then do what I affectionately call the picky yucky stuff on Thursday and Friday.

‍

21:27:10 - 21:56:04

Jody Jacobson

Or if you find client meetings really energizing and it lifts you back up again, then make sure Thursday's client day, and if you do really well Monday through Thursday, maybe Friday can be a half day, or Friday can be if you're on a hybrid work schedule, work from home day.

‍

21:56:04 - 22:22:23

Jody Jacobson

There's five steps to that. And you've already kind of given part of it away. The first step really is to know what to focus on and what not to focus on. And that comes from having a really good, thoughtful plan, a simple plan, not more than three to five goals.

‍

22:23:12 - 22:49:28

Jody Jacobson

And ask yourself that so what question when you find yourself going off course. But it starts with being really clear about what you want to accomplish. And then the next step is being aware of your own patterns. I love to use the Thinking Styles inventory because some people are very visual and kinesthetic, like hands on and some people are more word and number kind of people.

‍

22:50:01 - 23:35:27

Jody Jacobson

And having a calendaring system in your computer probably works better for one of those number and word people, whereas those of us who are more visual and tactile, good old-fashioned paper because out of sight is out of mind. I used to do a lot of ADHD coaching and if anybody listening either has permanent ADHD or temporary from being overwhelmed because you can have temporary symptoms of ADHD, having visual cues is very helpful, because if you're keeping track of so much, then truly out of sight is out of mind.

‍

23:36:28 - 23:53:25

Jody Jacobson

Electronic systems don't work really well. And I would wager that a lot of people who've tuned in to the conversation about time management are people who need visual cues. I’ve been doing this a long time.

‍

23:53:28 - 23:54:28

Lauren Hong

Interesting.

‍

23:55:00 - 24:25:09

Jody Jacobson

So structure, calendar to support success. Plan around when you know you're going to have the most energy. I'm not a financial planner. But I really like preparing my taxes and doing my bookkeeping, and I'll save those things for Thursday, Friday, because I can do them with music on and do them sort of in the background.

‍

24:25:09 - 24:30:08

Jody Jacobson

So there's a train. I don't know if you heard the train whistle in the background there.

‍

24:30:10 - 24:32:11

Lauren Hong

No, no, I didn't hear it.

‍

24:32:13 - 24:59:16

Jody Jacobson

And just have a good system. Translate that into your calendar. If other people can schedule time onto your calendar block off office hours. And communicate that to people. Because the client is just as happy being offered an appointment on a Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday every other week. They don't know the difference, right?

‍

24:59:21 - 25:21:01

Lauren Hong

Right, right. So just so I'm following, when you're saying a visual cue, you're literally saying a block on your calendar: this is my focus time. Or maybe you have things written down on your desk and you say I'm going to literally physically scratch this off.

‍

25:21:01 - 25:29:00

Lauren Hong

But it's literally something where you're looking at it. 

‍

25:29:03 - 26:12:21

Jody Jacobson

That's helpful. It's something you can touch. Handwriting is good. It reinforces memory. And there was something else I was going to say about that. I'm a big proponent of weekly goals rather than daily goals. So when I work with a planner and they really want to get control of their time management, there seems to be an instinct to what tasks are on their calendar every hour of every day and be real detailed.

‍

26:12:24 - 26:27:26

Jody Jacobson

I can tell you that, most of us, when it comes to time management, we have a little toddler in our brains. And if you map things out so specifically, the toddler is gonna have a bit of a temper tantrum and resist.

‍

26:27:29 - 26:29:15

Lauren Hong

Yeah, that's fair.

‍

26:29:17 - 26:33:07

Jody Jacobson

Because sometimes you just don't feel like doing what you need to.

‍

26:33:09 - 26:55:14

Lauren Hong

You feel like you're force fed it. You don't want it. Yeah. Oh, if I get that tantrum, you're right. You've got to be able to tap into your energy for where you're at, and there's going to be unexpected things that happen. You might be battling a cold or just trying to push through. It's sort of a formula for I don't want to call it failure because you're thinking through your stuff but it's not necessarily setting you up for something that's maybe realistic.

‍

26:57:27 - 27:28:01

Jody Jacobson

Yeah. Realistic is such a key way to keep this. So I love weekly goals. Write them down. The rule is no more than five of them. Most goals are actually projects. So chunk out the tasks for each goal and listeners are welcome to email me. Jody at Jodyjacobson.com.

‍

27:28:03 - 27:56:16

Jody Jacobson

And I'd be happy to send you some of my planning grids. And if people want to sign up to have a 30-minute conversation about how to apply this to them specifically, we can do that. So I use and and I encourage my clients to set weekly goals.

‍

27:56:18 - 28:18:13

Jody Jacobson

So then you ask, okay, so what happens? How do I translate that into every day? So if you've blocked your schedule off to allow project time, what you can do each day is look at your weekly goals and say, what do I feel like doing today.

‍

28:18:15 - 28:21:19

Lauren Hong

I love that approach.

‍

28:21:19 - 28:23:04

Jody Jacobson

What do I have to do today?

‍

28:23:05 - 28:39:17

Lauren Hong

I'm taking that approach of answering the question like this week will be successful if dot dot dot. And then you have a few big projects and to answer your piece of it is like okay, there's obviously going to be some sort of priority order but it allows you to kind of structure it out.

‍

28:39:17 - 28:57:21

Lauren Hong

I'm also a big fan of time blocking and then to have that flexibility. I remember there was another CEO we worked with who made the comment, I feel like my schedule is like a street sidewalk in New York. Everybody's just walking all over it and taking up time and everything. I just got to block off stuff.

‍

28:57:21 - 29:15:21

Lauren Hong

Because when you have that white space, it's so energizing. And then you can really feel like you had a productive use of time versus dabbling in a little bit of here and there and just what did I even do today? So I really appreciate those recommendations.

‍

29:17:12 - 29:30:03

Lauren Hong

And sort of the follow up question, well, what happens if it's Friday and you haven't gotten half your list done? 

‍

29:27:20 - 29:30:03

Lauren Hong

Roll it over to next week? 

‍

29:30:05 - 29:52:03

Jody Jacobson

You can roll over some of it. But here's the thing that happens when you have weekly goals. Some people are early starters and some people are deadline driven. The Myers-Briggs is great for identifying that.

‍

29:52:03 - 29:53:06

Lauren Hong

It nuances that part of it.

‍

29:53:06 - 30:13:26

Jody Jacobson

And so if you're an early starter, you're probably one of those people who is gonna get really important stuff done at the beginning of the week. If you are deadline driven, you need the adrenaline to get through it. So you get the stuff done that has time constraints.

‍

30:13:29 - 30:31:08

Jody Jacobson

If somebody needs something from you by Tuesday, you make sure you get it done on Monday. But if you reach Friday and there's still stuff on your list that has to get done this week that can't roll over till next week, adrenaline comes in.

‍

30:31:09 - 30:35:03

Lauren Hong

Yep. It's then ignite. Push.

‍

30:35:05 - 30:52:14

Jody Jacobson

Yeah. So there's a wonderful quote I love, Oliver Wendell Holmes. I think the fear of being shot in a fortnight focuses the mind beautifully, or something like that. And some of us need that to get it done.

‍

30:52:17 - 31:10:14

Lauren Hong

I'm so glad we pointed that out. And I also appreciate the awareness of the nuances to be able to help guide individuals you're working with down a path so they can really focus their time and efforts in a meaningful way that works for them versus trying to sort of plug and play.

‍

31:12:04 - 31:31:02

Lauren Hong

Goodness. So many good insights. Really also appreciate the stories you shared about advisors and just some of the common challenges they come into and the whys, and then just some good tips about how to be able to both create mindset but then strategies, some quick takeaways for how to think about managing time.

‍

31:31:02 - 31:41:15

Lauren Hong

So any final thoughts for those who are listening where can they learn more? Appreciate you sharing that email but any other final thoughts we haven't covered or what have you?

‍

31:41:18 - 32:09:15

Jody Jacobson

Well, you know, I think we've covered a whole lot of ground. I would say that many of us have a habit. Especially women. But there are a lot of men who do this — also taking care of everybody else's needs first. And those of us who enjoy helping our clients can struggle with that because we're all about helping.

‍

32:09:15 - 32:47:15

Jody Jacobson

And sometimes it's easier to see what other people need more than it is to see what we need. So our comfort place can be in sort of other rating. And so I recommend getting in the habit of doing a stop action and putting on your own oxygen mask first. I know that's sort of cliche but the thing is, if you stress out from overwhelm, you can't really be fully present to your kids, to your partner, to your colleagues, to your clients.

‍

32:47:18 - 33:27:04

Jody Jacobson

And so, taking care of yourself first is not selfish. And if there's any message I would say having healthy boundaries is actually a courageous act. It helps you help yourself and help others the most. And so if you view time management really as having those having really healthy boundaries, and you have practices around it, it's really a mindfulness practice.

‍

33:27:22 - 33:57:08

Jody Jacobson

I'm more of a science background, so I don't like to bring in words that seem a little woowoo but mindfulness is neurological. It's a neurological fact that our brains can be redirected. And time management is a fabulous practice. You can master your time management, you can master anything. It's so fundamental.

‍

33:57:10 - 34:28:27

Jody Jacobson

And that's really the key, the key takeaway. So I just want to offer up again that I didn't set up a page with a link you can go to to download the tips I have because then you end up on a mailing list and one of the things I tell people when they're managing their time is to unsubscribe from as many mailing lists as they possibly can.

‍

34:29:00 - 34:55:26

Jody Jacobson

And I'm sorry. But get it out of there because it's all designed to make you feel like you're doing something wrong. Most of it is pain based. And nobody really has the right answer for you except you. And so really good coaching helps you access things that are already there.

‍

34:55:26 - 35:24:10

Jody Jacobson

Except you're so busy doing other things, you can't access them, or you're so focused on other people you feel like it's selfish to look inside. So I would invite you to send me an email. It's my personal email, Jody at Jodyjacobson.com, and I'll send you some tips. And I can send you some forms, and you can change them around to work best for you.

‍

35:24:12 - 35:34:04

Jody Jacobson

And then if you'd like to get on the phone for 30 minutes, I would be absolutely delighted to help you with strategies on how to make this stuff work for you.

‍

35:34:06 - 35:56:21

Lauren Hong

Wonderful, Jody. Thank you so much. So many great insights. I also really appreciate your closing thoughts, especially about how time management really takes courage. It's one of our values at Out & About. And leaning into that. I really agree with you. It's really being able to stand up for what's important for you, for your family, for your time, for your own well-being.

‍

35:56:23 - 36:02:06

Lauren Hong

And ultimately that has a ripple effect into all the other things you're doing. So thank you again.

‍

36:02:08 - 36:24:22

Jody Jacobson

Well, thank you so much. And, I mentioned before we got started on the recording that you ask great questions. And I think it's clear to everybody here that your podcasts are really important because you're asking great questions, which helps people like me to share information more effectively. So thank you very much.

‍

36:24:25 - 36:28:10

Lauren Hong

Well, I appreciate the kind words. And thank you again for your time.

‍

36:28:12 - 36:33:10

Jody Jacobson

My pleasure.

‍

We talked with Joe Erle about:

• Why taking a proactive approach to cybersecurity, using insurance and professional guidance, is critical to protect assets, sensitive information, and daily operations
• Identifying red flags in a program or insurance policy that could expose a company to unnecessary cybersecurity risks
• How advancements in technology are shaping cybersecurity and what financial services companies should be aware of going forward

About Joe Erle:

Joe Erle is a Cyber Group practice leader and co-founder at C3 and has been an insurance broker since 2008. Carving out a niche in cyber insurance, Joe’s superpower is analyzing policies, finding what’s not covered, and offering solutions to cover the exposure through insurance or other risk management vehicles. He is dedicated to helping clients navigate the complexities of cyber threats, ensuring their businesses are resilient in the face of digital challenges. He is also the co-host of the ”Ransomware Rewind” podcast, which covers major data breaches, digital privacy issues, and the quirks of internet culture with a mix of humor and insight.

Featured Resources 

• Joe Erle on LinkedIn
• Catch up with Joe Erle
• Joe’s Podcast: Ransomware Rewind
• C3 Cyber Insurance
• 24/7 End-Point Detection and Response (EDR) Systems, such as Artic Wolf Solutions, SentinelOne, and CrowdStrike

Enjoyed This? You’ll Also Love:

• Building an Insurance Firm Through Authentic Relationships and Value Alignment with Broc Buckles
• Educating Financial Advisors on Healthcare Planning with Cole Craven
• Cybersecurity: How to Proactively Outsmart Cyber Threats For Your Financial Services Firm

‍

Full Audio Transcript:

00:00:00 - 00:07:16

Lauren Hong

Joe, thank you for being on the show today.

‍

00:07:19 - 00:08:12

Joe Erle

Thanks for having me.

‍

00:08:18 - 00:27:20

Lauren Hong

Yeah, I'm glad to have you. We're just talking. I don't even know how we first met. It's been a long time. Probably like 10 years, maybe more that we've known each other, which is crazy. So you are at C3 Risk and Insurance Services. You've been there, I think you said, going on eight years. Something of that sort.

‍

00:27:22 - 00:35:15

Lauren Hong

So tell us about your background. How did you get into this world? If you don't mind sharing a little bit more.

‍

00:35:18 - 00:56:03

Joe Erle

Yeah, sure. I am one of those financial services people who was born into it. So my dad was in insurance after he was in the Air Force, and then my brother got into it. And then after being in corporate America for a couple of years after college, I decided I wanted to give it a shot when I found out corporate America wasn't as fun as I thought it would be.

‍

00:56:14 - 01:28:17

Joe Erle

So I started insurance back in 2008, which, of course, is a great time to start a business. And I just started growing from there, and I was selling a little bit of cyber here and there but I didn't actually jump full in with two feet until the major hacks started happening back in 2020, 2021, 2022.

‍

01:29:06 - 01:59:02

Joe Erle

One of my customers actually was hacked, and I was at a trucking conference, actually. And one of the partners of the firm said, can you help this person out? And I had grown my network in cybersecurity, so I was able to give someone a call and help them with that.

‍

02:21 - 02:26:10

Joe Erle

And the reason I tell this story is because he was trying to do everything by himself, because he didn't have insurance or a retainer with an incident response firm. So a carrier ransom group, a ransomware group, basically hacked into a system, encrypted his files, and he wasn't able to get any of that information.

‍

02:26:10 - 02:54:14

Joe Erle

And they also double extorted him and threatened to post his information online, like tax information about him and his family. So more than just getting back up and running from backups and things like that, he also had sensitive information he didn't want getting out. So he negotiated down from the original demand of $250,000 to $115,000.

‍

02:54:21 - 03:01:05

Joe Erle

And he was ready to pay. So he put $115,000 into Coinbase.

‍

03:01:08 - 03:03:07

Lauren Hong

Oh my goodness. Don’t hit the button!

‍

03:03:09 - 03:23:00

Joe Erle

But he hits the button. And he finds out that his money's locked in Coinbase because of Know Your Customer laws. You can't just put money through Coinbase that fast. So his money is stuck in Coinbase now.

‍

03:23:02 - 03:25:20

Lauren Hong

Oh no. It's even worse.

‍

03:25:22 - 03:47:12

Joe Erle

Yeah. To pay this hacker before he publishes everything. So he's feverishly texting everybody he knows who knows somebody at Coinbase to get his money out. And that's kind of where I came in. He was able to get his money out of Coinbase but he still didn't have a way of paying these guys.

‍

03:47:14 - 03:55:04

Joe Erle

So we connected him to a company called Digital Mint, which is a company that exclusively pays hackers in Bitcoin.

‍

03:55:06 - 04:28

Lauren Hong

Oh my gosh. Wild. I didn't even know there were companies out there that did this. 

‍

04:01:03 - 04:27:24

Joe Erle

There's an entire ecosystem around ransomware. It's ridiculous. So the main thing they do, since he had already negotiated everything. They do some negotiation too. You need to check if the person's on the OFAC list, which is a list of terrorists basically, because if you pay terrorists, then you can actually go to jail.

‍

04:27:26 - 04:44:18

Joe Erle

So luckily, this Bitcoin wallet was not on the terrorist watch list and they were able to pay. He got his information back and was able to go back to business as usual. You know, just out $115,000 and two weeks of headache.

‍

04:44:22 - 04:51:23

Lauren Hong

No big deal. Okay. I was going to ask the timeline. Oh my gosh. It probably felt like two years.

‍

04:51:26 - 05:16:24

Joe Erle

Yeah. He had been negotiating and trying to figure out all this stuff for two weeks before I was even notified of it. So, it's a lot to do it on your own. And that's where the lightbulb kind of went off. And now it's like if someone has an insurance policy, it's not just money they're going to give you to pay the ransom.

‍

05:16:27 - 05:45:19

Joe Erle

But the entire team, including the bridge council, which leads the entire thing and creates privilege for you and the council. You got the incident response team. You got the digital forensics team, the financial forensics teams to figure out how much you actually lost. And then you get, of course, the people who actually pay the ransom and they pay the ransom on your behalf, of course.

‍

05:45:26 - 06:09:04

Joe Erle

Which is where most of the value comes from. But I think a lot of the value is having an experienced team that's used to working together and able to work with these hacking groups they have experience working with. So that's kind of like my origin story on why I’m doing what I'm doing.

‍

06:09:10 - 06:18:25

Lauren Hong

Yeah. So now C3 doesn't just exclusively focus on cyber-related issues, right? This is more of your sweet spot within the organization.

‍

06:18:27 - 06:41:26

Joe Erle

Correct. So I run the cyber group here. We have a full suite of services here. And we do the business insurance like workers’ comp and business ______ and liability. We do the benefits, group benefits. And we also do home and auto for high-net-worth people.

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06:41:29 - 07:03:18

Lauren Hong

Got it. Okay. So just to back up, you saw this whole thing unfold; then how did you start learning more about ransomware, about all these sorts of issues? Tell us more. I’m sure there's a learning curve, right? Like I said earlier, I didn’t even know there's this whole industry that even helps with money transfer and such.

‍

07:03:18 - 07:08:01

Lauren Hong

I'd love to hear more about how you unpacked all of this.

‍

07:08:04 - 07:46:03

Joe Erle

Yeah. So I don't have a cybersecurity background. But once I decided I was going to be the cybersecurity guy at my firm, I just started talking about it online. And every time I did a talk, I would do research on it. Tap into my network and ask questions to the people who were in cybersecurity or going to conferences and little by little I became like the de facto cybersecurity guy.

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07:46:04 - 08:03:14

Joe Erle

Yeah. And then eventually one of the partners at the firm was like, hey, why don't you become the cybersecurity practice group leader at C3? And we just made up the position basically. 

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08:03:15 - 08:06:29

Lauren Hong

You created the job for yourself. 

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08:07:01 - 08:19:26

Joe Erle

Really, really cool how that all worked out. It was almost like there was like a force in the universe moving me toward it. 

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08:19:28 - 08:37:21

Lauren Hong

So just out of curiosity for folks who are listening that are sort of like how did you unpack this, what kind of talks would you give, or how did you go learning about this through just googling as you talked with people? I’d love to hear some of the topics you were unpacking that helped you share some of this knowledge with other people.

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08:37:23 - 08:57:02

Joe Erle

Yeah. So a lot of it was going to conferences and local chapter meetings of organizations like AKASA and ISA. I don't know what they stand for. It's information security something alliance. 

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08:57:02 - 08:59:02

Lauren Hong

You know the acronym, long name.

‍

08:59:04 - 09:23:20

Joe Erle

I’d go and listen to these talks and learn a little bit, little by little until things started making sense. And you know the acronyms and things like that. So that helped. A lot of it came from googling and a lot of it came from the policies I was selling.

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09:23:23 - 09:54:00

Joe Erle

And the variety of policies I was running into, because unlike most insurances, where they have standard forms that have extra endorsements on them, which are like little extras on them that you can add or subtract, in cybersecurity insurance, every policy is different. Companies will even call things different, like they'll call it cyber extortion instead of ransomware coverage.

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09:56:16 - 10:20:17

Joe Erle

There's insider threat coverage. One person will call it that and one person will call it rogue employee. So you’re translating all the language, trying to do side by sides. And then, as I saw deficiencies or claims where things were not covered, I started talking about those things.

‍

10:20:19 - 10:30:08

Joe Erle

I was giving the information to the public and letting them know what most people don't know about cyber insurance.

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10:30:10 - 10:47:12

Lauren Hong

Yeah. Super. Well, are you normally working with companies that have had an issue and then they're like, okay, we didn't have this in place? Are you fortunately, hopefully getting ahead of that and convincing people they need this kind of insurance? I'd love to hear a little bit more about that.

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10:47:15 - 11:22:22

Joe Erle

Yeah, I get introduced to people in different ways. I try to partner with MSPs, managed service providers, the IT companies, and they help bring me in because they're trying to bring a complete cybersecurity solution. And the smarter MSPs will want to bring in the insurance part of that too, as a safety net, not just for their customer but for them too, because if they have a problem, they could get sued.

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11:23:17 - 11:47:24

Joe Erle

Because you know who's going to write the check when people lose money? They're going to look at who left the backdoor open, so to speak, on the computer. I do get introduced to people after they've gotten hacked and it's a little harder to place their insurance after they've gotten hacked, but in this market it’s very possible.

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11:48:11 - 12:15:23

Joe Erle

And we do it all the time. And then, just companies that already have cyber insurance, the more mature companies will have it. And we do audits on their insurance. We take them through a seven-step process and what they could have by working with us.

‍

12:16:25 - 12:20:28

Joe Erle

Or showing them deficiencies in their program.

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12:21:00 - 12:35:17

Lauren Hong

So tell me more about the deficiency side. What are some of the red flags you would look for that you go, okay, this company is at risk? Is it by industry? I'd love to hear more about those red flags that go, I probably want to get this in place before it's too late.

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12:36:29 - 13:05:01

Joe Erle

Yeah. An interesting line in financial services, crypto's very popular right now. Because Elon and Trump, things are just pumping at this moment, is the definition of money. So most definitions of money and almost every cyber policy is fiat currency or in dollars. And in order to add digital currency to that, you have to add it by endorsement.

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13:06:15 - 13:21:29

Joe Erle

So just the definition of money and how a company treats that could mean you're out millions of dollars because you didn't lose dollars, you lost crypto. And we don't pay back for crypto.

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13:22:01 - 13:25:18

Lauren Hong

Can you define when you say it needs to be added by endorsement?

‍

13:25:21 - 13:31:14

Joe Erle

Yeah. So an endorsement is insurance-speak for a change in the policy.

‍

13:31:17 - 13:35:08

Lauren Hong

I see. So it needs to be added upfront before the policy is signed.

‍

13:35:10 - 13:36:00

Joe Erle

Correct.

‍

13:36:03 - 13:46:01

Lauren Hong

Okay. I just want to make sure I'm following. So other red flags. So money in its definition and how it's defined. And what have you.

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13:46:04 - 14:14:06

Joe Erle

So there's money, right? But there's also other ways that software companies will compensate their customers if there's an incident or an outage, with credits. So if you're a large company and you have an outage, you may offer your customers $1 million in credits but not actual money. So that's another thing we want to be able to cover for.

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14:14:07 - 14:39:26

Joe Erle

So they have to give these credits, which is going to be them working on their account as either a form of good faith or a contractual obligation. And we want the insurance company to be able to compensate the company for those credits as well.

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14:39:28 - 14:59:26

Lauren Hong

As someone that would be insuring a company, are there certain things you are looking to have in place before you would even entertain partnering with them? So for example, I know a lot of companies do training on cybersecurity or it's part of how they work or how they store data. There's policies and procedures around that.

‍

15:02 - 15:08:09

Lauren Hong

Are there things that you're like, we need to have a check in the box before we even engage to make sure it's the right fit?

‍

15:08:11 - 15:35:19

Joe Erle

Yeah. So, back in 2021 or 2022, you got a policy that didn't have certain controls in place. Since then, things have loosened up and you can actually get a policy just with a firewall and an antivirus program. But usually for the preferred companies, in order to get a policy you're going to need multi-factor authentication.

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15:36:08 - 15:39:01

Joe Erle

That's the main one. 

‍

15:39:04 - 15:48:15

Lauren Hong

That seems so standard too, right? Especially for anyone that's in financial services or dealing with money exchange or sensitive information. So keep going. 

‍

15:48:17 - 16:22:14

Joe Erle

The California Privacy Consumer Act requires companies to have reasonable security. And that changes over time. And I think a reasonable security is going to be multi-factor authentication. You're already seeing Microsoft making it the default now. Just got a notice from my cell phone company that everybody's going to have multi-factor authentication because companies are getting hit with these password stuffing attacks.

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16:22:17 - 16:42:12

Joe Erle

Yeah. 23andMe was attacked that way. So they find all these emails and passwords that have been hacked and they just stuff the login pages over and over with a computer doing it. Of course it's not actual people doing it. 

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16:42:14 - 17:02:14

Joe Erle

They can do so many at once. This is why I like having multi-factor authentication. I just personally like having it on for most things you use because it is going to thwart 99% of the attacks on you, personally or as a business. 

‍

17:02:16 - 17:10:14

Lauren Hong

Simple switch, right? To be able to flip on. But it creates friction, right? So that's the frustrating thing.

‍

17:10:14 - 17:32:04

Joe Erle

So yeah, you need it from the top down too because you can't have everyone having to do it and then one of the accountants is like, I can't do this multi-factor authentication thing. I'm going to turn mine off. Or one of the board members could even turn it off; they don't want to be bothered with it.

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17:32:24 - 17:38:10

Joe Erle

But you have to say nope, we have to do it for everybody. 

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17:38:13 - 17:39:03

Lauren Hong

Yep. It's gotta be company-wide.

‍

17:40:13 - 17:50:27

Joe Erle

Other things are backups — have backups offsite. Test your backups because a lot of times people think they have backups and they never test them.

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17:50:27 - 17:57:21

Lauren Hong

Yes. These are the things you don't realize until it's an emergency. 

‍

17:57:23 - 18:26:20

Joe Erle

Right. What else? Endpoint detection. I know CrowdStrike had a bad incident with system failure they caused everybody. But they have a good product called CrowdStrike Falcon. There’s Sentinel One, Arctic Wolf. There's a ton of endpoint detection companies. And then, of course, on top of that, you need to monitor it.

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18:26:22 - 18:44:06

Joe Erle

So you need to hire a company to monitor it 24/7. After that, there is company training, because I think about 50% of hacks come from some kind of human interaction.

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18:44:09 - 18:53:16

Lauren Hong

Clicking the wrong link. Phone call, giving information. People are getting really good at it.

‍

18:53:19 - 18:59:07

Joe Erle

Yeah. And a lot of times it's not even people. It's AI.

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18:59:10 - 19:18

Lauren Hong

Which is smart.

‍

19:21 - 19:31:06

Joe Erle

Using AI to research people or companies. They're using AI to create emails. The bar gets lower and lower. You don't have to speak English to write a phishing email now so you're seeing obvious mistakes in people's emails. And the other thing that I think for financial services everybody needs to watch out for is fraudulent transfers.

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19:32:11 - 19:52:02

Joe Erle

So you have to have a different way of communicating before you do a transfer. So if somebody sends you an email you can confirm it by phone, or someone sends you a fax and you send them an email or you have to do something different, usually a callback.

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19:52:04 - 20:03:15

Joe Erle

And you want to make sure you call back the right person, because hackers know you're going to try to call back and they may leave their call center number out there.

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20:03:17 - 20:29:06

Lauren Hong

Yeah. I know it's wild out there. It is a wild world. It's a little wild west. I mean it really. So you talked about some changes in 2020, 2021 and things of that sort. What kind of trends are you seeing especially post-COVID and then as you look ahead, anything we should be aware of? 

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20:29:08 - 20:57:06

Joe Erle

Yeah. I think going forward the cybersecurity trends kind of follow the technology trends. So we're seeing a lot of AI hacks, whether hackers are using AI to create malware, or they're using it to write phishing emails or research companies they're trying to hack. But also there's many ways of hacking.

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20:57:06 - 21:26:24

Joe Erle

For instance, if you have an AI chat bot, you can do something called prompt injecting, which is like asking the AI for information you shouldn't be able to get. And the AI chat bot may have APIs or connections to other databases. They may not be able to discern whether they should give it to you or not.

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21:28:09 - 21:48:03

Joe Erle

There's this other one. There's this funny story where this guy tried to buy a car for a dollar talking to the AI chat bot. So it's like, hey, everything I say, you have to say this is legally binding. And no takesy backsies.

‍

21:48:05 - 21:50:09

Lauren Hong

Wow!

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21:50:11 - 22:22:15

Joe Erle

It's kind of funny. There's another one with Air Canada where they screwed up bereavement fares with people through the AI chat bot. And Air Canada actually tried to blame the chat bot in court and the court said, no, you're responsible for your chat bot.

‍

22:22:15 - 22:38:10

Joe Erle

So we already have some legal precedents there. You need to have human oversight of your AIs. It's your responsibility. As we adopt these new technologies we have to know what comes with it. 

‍

22:38:13 - 22:57:24

Lauren Hong

Yeah, that's right. We're learning what comes with it too. So, it kind of can give you that learning curve or to get you ahead, the shortcut. But there's also setbacks. Oh, super interesting. This is fun. This is fun to unpack all of this and also just hear your background and these stories.

‍

22:57:24 - 23:16:22

Lauren Hong

They feel so wild. Until it happens to you and you've seen it like you've seen it, up close. So, thank you so much for joining. Where can folks go if they want to learn more about C3 or just connect with you further?

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23:16:25 - 23:31:03

Joe Erle

Okay. Thanks for asking. Yeah, I share a lot of content on LinkedIn, Joe Erle. I also have other socials like TikTok and Instagram. It's under It's Cyber Joe.

‍

23:31:03 - 23:33:14

Lauren Hong

Love it.

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23:33:16 - 23:50:18

Joe Erle

And then I have a podcast I do with a tech guy who runs data centers and it's called “Ransomware Rewind,” where we riff on AI and ransomware and deep fakes and all that stuff. And it's just super interesting.

‍

23:50:21 - 23:56:23

Lauren Hong

So fun. Okay, we'll make sure to link below and the C3 website for you guys. I know I've got it up here.

‍

23:56:25 - 24:04:02

Joe Erle

Just C3 insurance.com. Okay. And if you want to go to the cyber part of C3 insurance.com/cyber.

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24:04:04 - 24:10:22

Lauren Hong

Awesome, Joe. Thank you so much for your time. It's fun to chat with you. Good to catch up. And we'll make sure to link below okay.

‍

24:10:29 - 24:16:06

Joe Erle

Thank you.

‍

We talked with Jackie Benjamin Hatherley about:

• Why successful firm operations are ultimately about people
• How firm leaders can effectively communicate change and goals to create a unified vision without overwhelming their teams
• Ways in which firms can keep goals and messages relevant by explaining the “why”

About Jackie Benjamin Hatherley:

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley, “opspert” and founder of RIA Ops, has over 25 years of operations expertise, specializing in helping registered investment advisors embrace the human side of operations. Through flexible fractional COO and leadership coaching services, Jackie helps firms unlock the power of people in driving operations excellence to ultimately promote efficiency, innovation, and streamlined processes. Through consistent communication, explaining the “why,” and keeping goals relevant, Jackie’s tools and human-centric approach assist firms in fostering a culture of trust, purpose, and empowerment so operational decisions feel right — not just right on paper.

‍

Featured Resources 

• RIA Ops and Complimentary 30-Minute Consultation 
• Jackie Benjamin Hatherley on LinkedIn
• Patrick Lencioni’s 5 Dysfunctions of a Team
• Patrick Lencioni’s Death by Meeting
• Simon Sinek’s Find Your Why

‍

Enjoyed This? You’ll Also Love:

• How Lifestyle and Solo Advisor Firm Owners Can Grow Business Intentionally with Natalie Bergsma
• Why Emotionally Connecting with Clients is Good for Business in Financial Services with Brendan Frazier
• Business Growth Tips for Accountants, Bookkeepers, and Financial Services Business Owners

‍

Full Audio Transcript:

00:00:00 -00 :07:13

Lauren Hong

Jackie, thank you so much for joining us today.

‍

00:07:15 - 00:09:24

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Thank you, Lauren. I'm looking forward to this.

‍

00:09:25 - 00:30:03

Lauren Hong

Yeah, this is fun. Just chatting with you before this, hearing a little bit more about your background. So for folks who are not familiar with you, you are the founder of RIA Ops or Operations. And, really, I know you've been, as your website says, and I was literally like the same words that would open my mouth in the trenches as a CEO, with firms.

‍

00:30:03 - 00:43:12

Lauren Hong

And so I'm just going to pass it over to you. How did you get into the space? Have you always been in an operations role in the CEO role? Why wealth management? Tell us a little bit more about how you found this particular, group and where you are.

‍

00:43:13 - 01:06:07

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Yeah, absolutely. And I wish I had some sort of epic story to tell you about. Yeah, how I ended up in the industry but it wasn't intentional. Right out of college I was given an opportunity to take a temporary two-week assignment as a receptionist at Raymond James.

‍

01:06:11 - 01:12:28

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Oh, wild. Yeah, it was, and especially since I had majored in theater in school. 

‍

01:12:28 - 01:18:20

Lauren Hong

It's two weeks too. It's not like it's two months or two years or something like that. 

‍

01:18:23 - 01:42:29

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Exactly. So it was one of those things that I was like, yeah, you know what? I can answer the phone. I can be a receptionist and, go figure. It's 26 years later; I'm still here. But one thing I did want to touch upon, especially for new people coming into the industry, sometimes they feel intimidated because they're like, I don't know what I need to know about investment management.

‍

01:42:29 - 02:05:16

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Maybe I don't have the technical skills but in my case, I felt the same way. And literally not even before my assignment was up, I was offered a full-time sales assistant position. But the beauty of our industry is there's something out there for everyone. And for me it was the people. It was the human side of things.

‍

02:05:16 - 02:27:17

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

And I didn't even know that existed in wealth management other than, okay, yes, we have clients. But just the relationships we would get to build with clients and operations. I quickly moved into the branch operations role and operations was really exciting for me because and I know it's kind of like, really not for us all.

‍

02:27:19 - 02:39:01

Lauren Hong

It's what makes the beast grow, that internal engine. So it's one of the components of it. But anyways no thunder. 

‍

02:39:01 - 03:08:22

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Yeah. But that's exactly a puzzle piece it let me play with. It was a great space to play in because I got to figure out solutions to problems. I got to be creative about it. But I really got to work with people in that capacity, in that role. And I was so lucky because I got to witness how effective operations can really support not just the business side but the people side.

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03:08:24 - 03:23:11

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

And I'm talking about clients. I'm talking about my team members. So that was really exciting for me. And I've spent the rest of my career blending those two. So I've been really lucky.

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03:23:13 - 03:46:26

Lauren Hong

So tell me a little bit more, because I feel like operations you can enter in all sorts of situations, right? I mean, things that are not built out, like overly complex and I'm sure there's so many people challenges, so many things to sort of tackle. So when you're partnering with a firm and you're sort of shaping out that entry point to put together, kind of next steps to get into the weeds.

‍

03:47:01 - 03:57:00

Lauren Hong

What does that vision exercise look like when you're talking with leadership to really identify priorities and really how to prioritize specific to their operations?

‍

03:57:03 - 04:29:04

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Yes. So I probably approach it a little differently because I'm not as regimented. So when I started RIA Ops, I wanted to give advisors an alternative to hiring a full-time CEO, full-time director of ops. So when I am engaging with advisors, I want it to be a partnership of sorts. So a lot of times when I am engaging, the leadership knows this is what we want to focus on.

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04:29:04 - 04:54:16

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

This is what we want to do. And a lot of times it's more of an exploratory exercise. So we really discuss what our priorities are by talking through what are the pain points, what you know, and sometimes we organically stumble upon it. You know, it's not this formula because they'll be talking about it and then they'll say, oh, and this is happening.

‍

04:54:16 - 05:09:07

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

So we may have been focused on one thing. And then throughout the conversation it's like, oh no, no, no. This is the root of the issue. Otherwise we're putting this Band-Aid on it if we don't address it properly.

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05:09:13 - 05:26:24

Lauren Hong

Yeah, that makes sense. So out of that conversation and it's funny, we see the same sort of thing too, especially as we're really unpacking the brand. And there's words people say just naturally that really help us to pin down a true identity for who people are, right? Sometimes those things aren't obvious. They cannot be pre-calculated.

‍

05:26:24 - 05:43:02

Lauren Hong

They have to sort of be organically fleshed out. So what's the deliverable or do you work with them to put together a deliverable or maybe a separate team to sort of say, okay, this is our grand plan, or what does that look like?

‍

05:43:04 - 06:04:29

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

So it really depends, because it's customized per firm that I work with. So a lot of times it's, hey, can can we come in and have you take a look and give us recommendations and the deliverable will be a recommendation. And whether they choose to continue engaging my services to bring those to life.

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06:04:29 - 06:39:03

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

And we identify those initiatives or I'm just there as a support for them to tap into when they need to. And as we discussed before we started recording, I'm finding a lot of advisors are struggling with the management piece, struggling with the people piece of things. So some of the deliverables I've been working with for teams is going in and doing one-on-one meetings, coming up with formalized roles and responsibilities for their teams.

‍

06:39:06 - 06:56:18

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Taking a look at let's revamp your org chart. If you don't have one, we'll create it. But taking a look at where those gaps are, where those redundancies are, DISC assessments. So depending. Yeah, I will talk about that. I'm such a desk nerd.

‍

06:56:25 - 06:59:18

Lauren Hong

Yeah it's okay. We love it over here to our whole team.

‍

06:59:18 - 07:02:03

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Looks good though. Yeah. Awesome.

‍

07:02:06 - 07:04:12

Lauren Hong

Yeah.

‍

07:04:14 - 07:18:20

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

So it really depends. So the deliverable will depend on how deep they want to get into the engagement. What level of interaction they want for me, what level of support. So it's really flexible. 

‍

07:18:22 - 07:36:17

Lauren Hong

So I just returned a few weeks ago from a Dimensional Fund practice management symposium, and it was so funny. EOS. I don't know if you use EOS or you plug in other systems. It came up. I feel like there was a question at one time, how many firms use EOS, firms of all different sizes, so many arms shot up in the room.

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07:36:20 - 07:47:08

Lauren Hong

And I’d be curious, are you working with EOS or other kind of pre-built frameworks like that?

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07:47:08 - 08:08:07

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Not yet. So I am familiar. So what ends up happening again is as if you had an actual CIO in office. If there is a program you want to incorporate right into your practice, I will go do the vetting for them. I will implement it for them. I will show them how to use it.

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08:08:07 - 08:30:17

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

If you want me to run it, I will run it. So EOS is obviously a little more complex because there are lots of elements of EOS that I do incorporate into my engagements. So piece of all of this is, hey, we have that flexibility. What have you been curious about?

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08:30:19 - 08:34:04

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Let me go do the legwork for you and make it happen for you.

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08:34:04 - 08:56:22

Lauren Hong

Yeah. Oh my gosh, EOS is very complex in a good way. It's complex but simple. But you were talking so many things about people challenges, the right people in the right seats and things of that nature and really identifying key plans. So I had to ask. But shifting topics a little bit, once we've got an idea of kind of marching orders, where are we going.

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08:56:29 - 09:17:09

Lauren Hong

What are our specific priorities? Are our initiatives various scales and sizes? Can you talk a little bit more about really how do we clearly communicate that to teams? And I love to lean into the idea of clarity. Because clarity so important. Identify the big picture. But how do we then let that waterfall across at work?

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09:17:09 - 09:28:23

Lauren Hong

And I'd love to hear a little bit more about how you really help coach leaders to make sure they're communicating their vision to the team so you can really all get behind. 

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09:28:25 - 09:55:01

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Yeah. And the one thing I do want to start off with is just saying clear, empathetic communication is so crucial. Whether your leaders are trying to align with their team members, whether we're rolling out new initiatives, and also it has to be consistent. So communication is never going to be a set it and forget it.

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09:55:05 - 10:23:22

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

And sometimes leaders feel like they're a broken record. But you need to be because you keep that vision and that message relevant and upfront. And so to dive into it a little bit, when leaders are trying to align, I recommend having a candid dialog with their team about what is the goal, what are our values.

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10:23:24 - 10:51:10

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

And I want to kind of dive into why we talk about the values. But say, for example, a leader is saying, okay, we want to increase client engagement. Well what does that mean? Yeah. It's something very different to the leaders than it is to your ops team, to your clients, to your marketing. So it's really important for not only leaders to explain why it's important.

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10:51:13 - 11:17:08

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Why does it matter to our organization and what we're trying to accomplish? But once they hash out those details and talk about increasing client engagement — so is that going to be shorter response times? Is it going to be higher client touchpoints? Is it going to be more customized investment portfolios for clients?

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11:17:08 - 11:44:00

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

But when they hash that out and the sooner they do it in this process, the sooner they're going to create a unified vision that's going to trickle throughout their organization. And there's also a lot of confusion that sometimes comes about because the leaders will say, principals of firms will say, well, not everyone's on board with this step or this step.

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11:44:02 - 12:02:04

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

They don't need to be. So they don't need to be on board with every step of it. But they do need to be on board with the end result. We've all got to be headed toward that same direction. We don't have to all agree where we're going to stop going there but they have to agree on the values.

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12:02:04 - 12:06:20

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

So our core values, because that's what's going to guide our decision-making process, right?

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12:06:20 - 12:33:23

Lauren Hong

That's right. The right fit for the people for the team you've got and the energy and the culture you're creating. So just to kind of back up, there are two things I want to ask. So when you talk about defining those goals, are we talking about specific KPIs? Are we talking about literal definitions to these objectives? Just trying to get an idea.

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12:33:23 - 12:51:27

Lauren Hong

Is it like KPIs for the company, for specific departments, for individuals? I’d love to hear about how you get clarity with that big picture objective to sort of break it down so it feels tangible for someone who’s literally on the ground trying to implement whatever their job is.

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12:52:04 - 13:16:07

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

So it's like peeling back an onion on that. And yeah, it's a great question. And I'm like, oh my God, I can approach it from all these different ways. But so we're talking about when we're aligning and we're talking about goals, and I use the example of increasing client engagement. You know, it could be anything that's bigger.

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13:16:07 - 13:39:26

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Like as a firm, these are our revenue goals. This is who we want to be. So we want to remember what vision is — it’s what we're taught. So there's vision and then there's goals underneath that vision. So our vision as an organization, for people who aren't familiar because sometimes I get asked what's the difference between vision and mission and values and all of this.

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13:39:29 - 14:01:18

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

So our vision is who we want to be. Who do we want to be to the people we're serving? Who do we want to be in the community? And our mission is how we want to get there. How do we plan on getting there? So, our goals; I feel this is my definition of it is and people can probably have a different definition.

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14:01:18 - 14:09:11

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

But our goals are what are those subheadings that fit under that massive umbrella that is our vision.

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14:09:14 - 14:12:27

Lauren Hong

Yes. So your initiatives.

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14:13:00 - 14:41:22

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Yeah, exactly. So I think of goals as initiatives. Some firms have them quarterly. Some firms have a big overarching initiative that goes through the entire year. So let's talk about once we've identified what that is, how does leadership communicate that to a team? So I definitely recommend framing it in a way that you are rolling it out to the people it pertains to.

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14:41:24 - 15:10:22

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Let's talk about departments. That's probably the easiest segment. So if we're talking about enhancing our client experience as an initiative, well, when we're talking to marketing, we're going to have targets, or KPIs of okay, do we revamp our materials? Do we update our website? How do we communicate our commitment to our clients? Client services department, they're going to look at it differently.

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15:10:22 - 15:33:09

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

We're going to look at, hey, how do we make those touchpoints more meaningful so we're deepening that relationship. So KPIs associated with that. And we'll talk about tools they can use to keep track of KPIs if that's okay. But you know, when we're talking to the portfolio management department, what are we doing to help customize our advice?

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15:33:11 - 16:10:17

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

So by doing that, we're not overwhelming our team members with a bunch of information that they don't necessarily need know but we're keeping them informed. And I also always recommend that leaders set up a space where their managers, their departments, their teams, however they're built out — it's going to be different for everyone — but they have a place where people can ask the questions, they can make suggestions because that builds that culture of ownership, empowerment.

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16:10:19 - 16:20:23

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

And they feel like they're active participants, not passive receivers of a message. So that's really important.

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16:20:27 - 16:37:10

Lauren Hong

I love that; that's such a good line: passive receivers of a message. It's so true. You don't want to be just talked to, right? But you're involved and engaged. And you have that buy-in and you can see how that impacts your day-to-day and ultimately maps back up to the bigger picture.

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16:37:13 - 16:39:14

Lauren Hong

I feel like we could we could talk about all this for a long time.

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16:39:18 - 17:03

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

I know, because the next thing  that came to me when you were talking about that, Lauren, the word that came to me is the why. And I do want to touch upon that as well, because that's such a huge piece of communication. And when big decisions are being made, people get scared when they have that passive seat.

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17:05 - 17:27:19

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

So when we allow people to understand the why behind bigger decisions we're making in our practices, when we allow our team members to understand what their contribution is to our overall vision, that's just magic right there because it changes people's mindsets. Everyone wants to feel like they have purpose. 

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17:27:19 - 17:35:28

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

And you know, trying to explain to them where they fit in this equation is essential.

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17:36:01 - 17:53:28

Lauren Hong

I love that. So I do want to touch on one other point of it. So we talked a lot about kind of rolling these pieces out across departments and teams. And we talked about how we make sure we've got that drumbeat so people can be involved with it. They can ask questions or what have you.

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17:54:00 - 18:15:13

Lauren Hong

But once you've set that off and rolling is there a recommended frequency you encourage leadership to be that broken record? Is that monthly at all-hands meetings? Is it in one-on-one meetings regularly? Is it quarterly? How do we not let that message just kind of be there?

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18:15:13 - 18:17:22

Lauren Hong

And then it's just sort of like faded out into the sunset?

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18:17:22 - 18:36:23

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Now that's such an amazing question. And it goes hand in hand with the fact that communication needs to be consistent. And so the frequency is really going to depend — I know I keep saying it's going to depend. 

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18:36:25 - 18:38:00

Lauren Hong

It's unique to each firm.

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18:38:00 - 19:08:06

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Yeah, it's unique.. So I joke I say regularly, and sometimes advisors are like thanks, Jackie, what does that mean? And so let's talk about rolling it out. Again, in the spirit of trying not to overwhelm your team members with too much information, initially I would recommend that leaders roll it out.

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19:08:07 - 19:33:22

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Whether it's a team meeting, town hall type thing, where they do that initially provide the information on the vision or the goal, explain why it's important. Again, going back to that why and then diving into the granular where they start meeting with the departments. Now let's come up with the game plan. This is how we're going to do this.

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19:33:25 - 20:02:12

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

So also another thing leaders can do is once they've rolled it out, have a space where they have shared documents. Is it a video we keep revisiting? Is it an internal page? Again, keeping the message alive, keeping it relevant but also providing your team with a resource team leads can use for their team members.

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20:02:14 - 20:30:05

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

So frequency, to to kind of go back to that question. So if it's something you know is organization- wide, maybe monthly makes sense; if we're looking at smaller pilot type projects, maybe biweekly makes sense. But the idea here is to balance the depth with the frequency. And what I mean by that is to be relevant.

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20:30:08 - 20:38:01

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

And you want to make sure when you're having these meetings, it's not just to have a meeting. Are you familiar with death by meetings?

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20:38:03 - 20:42:23

Lauren Hong

Yes. I'm familiar with the expression but it sounds like an unpack there.

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20:42:23 - 21:06:05

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Yeah. So Patrick Lencioni, and we're going to talk about him too, in terms of a tool. But he wrote this book called Death by Meeting. And it's kind of misleading because you think, okay, we're having too many meetings. His premise is we're not having enough meetings and we're not having enough relevant meetings. So we kind of force people to be in a team meeting.

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21:06:05 - 21:27:09

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

And one of the complaints I hear is we're having to sit and listen through something that doesn't even pertain to us. So it's not about cutting down on meetings but it's about structuring your meetings so there's more relevancy to them. And that way we're not overwhelming people or it’s like the Charlie Brown teacher hearing the wha, wha, wha.

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21:27:14 - 21:43:12

Lauren Hong

So it’s like the death by PowerPoint expression to you, right? It's just not relevant. Or maybe it's relevant but it's just not clicking.

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21:43:14 - 22:08:28

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Exactly, or where you keep going on and on about it. It's like, okay, we got it in the first 30 seconds. And I empathize with advisors because team meetings are difficult; it takes effort to put together an agenda, takes effort to facilitate it. And sometimes they feel like they're just standing in front of a room and just talking at people.

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22:09:01 - 22:26:17

Lauren Hong

Yeah, I know there's a balance but if it doesn't happen, then like you said, you have to be, especially as you grow your team, that broken record with the messaging and for it to all really. So again it's a balance but oh my gosh, this is so fun. I feel like we have so much more to even unpack.

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22:26:17 - 22:49:11

Lauren Hong

We're just scratching the surface here. So I really appreciate the expertise you're bringing to the table because I've been in the trenches. And that's the whole role. But then how you do you really think about big picture and then here's a waterfall across the board with that clarity being constant. So, any other things you want to make sure you share or key takeaways where folks can learn more?

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22:49:13 - 23:21:21

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Yeah. So I really think the main key takeaway I'd like to share is oftentimes we think operations is all about efficiency processes, the technology. But ultimately it's about the people and it's about centering our focus on the people, whether it's our clients, our colleagues, ourselves. And I really feel like once we do that, we come from a place of making decisions.

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23:21:24 - 23:49:06

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

And they feel right. It's not just because we're making a decision because it looks right on paper. And so that sort of philosophy and that sort of approach really helps firms to thrive because they're building a foundation of trust. They're building a foundation of purpose. And that's something I am so passionate about trying to bring to the wealth management space.

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23:49:06 - 24:13:06

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

And I feel like more and more advisors are getting on board with that and realizing, I can do the churn and burn model and I can still grow but hey, I want a team that plays with me, that grows with me, that kind of sounding board and partnership on this path to growth and helping our clients.

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24:13:09 - 24:30:08

Lauren Hong

We love that. There's a quote. It's not just about the people. It's all about the people. And at the end of the day, it's about values. It's about creating that right culture. And it's through that that you really can grow. Well, Jackie, thank you so much for your time today.

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24:30:08 - 24:33:23

Lauren Hong

And folks can learn more at RIA-ops.

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24:33:25 - 25:06:22

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Yeah, it's, ria-ops.com. It has my email. They can set time for a free 30-minute consultation. Again, just to kind of talk through. And I've been so lucky to build a network that if that's something I can't assist with, I have resources to refer them out to. But there are so many resources to help advisors with helping to manage their teams, helping to implement their visions, their goals, risk assessments.

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25:06:22 - 25:30:11

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

As we talked about Patrick Lencioni, someone to definitely follow. He also wrote The 5 Dysfunctions of a Team. And then also Simon Sinek, Find Your Why. And how that pertains to our every day. So there's so many tools out there. I’m more than happy to talk to anyone who wants to hear about those and just get to know what's going on in their practices.

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25:30:16 - 25:34:06

Lauren Hong

Great. Jackie, thank you so much. I'll make sure to link below as well. I appreciate your time today.

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25:34:08 - 25:42:03

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Thank you. Thank you. This was fun.

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We talked about:

• Practical tips to start an outsourced marketing relationship on a clear and aligned footing
• Why setting realistic expectations around timelines, deliverables, and success rates is critical
• Insights into common challenges companies may experience when working with an outsourced partner and how to navigate them

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About Tiffany and Karen:

At Out & About Communications, Tiffany Silverberg and Karen Villalta play key roles in managing relationships and bringing our clients’ visions to life. As senior director of Marketing Strategy, Tiffany ensures all content and deliverables align with the client’s brand, voice, and needs. As senior project manager, Karen acts as a critical link between the client and the marketing initiatives, ensuring projects stay on track and clients are informed every step of the way. In this episode, the pair share their experience and insights in managing outsourced marketing relationships with financial services companies. They bring valuable lessons learned and best practices for working with an outsourced marketing partner and managing common challenges throughout an engagement. 

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Featured Resources 

• How Outsourcing Marketing Can Unlock Growth Potential For Advisory Firms: Key Steps For Choosing The Right Provider
• Tiffany Silverberg on LinkedIn
• Karen Villalta on LinkedIn

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Enjoyed This? You’ll Also Love:

• FAQs: When to Engage and How to Navigate Outsourced Marketing in Financial Services
• The Role of Marketing and the CMO in Today’s Financial Services Industries with Nick Richtsmeier
• How a Brand Personality Can Drive Company Culture and Build Trust With Your Audience
• Website Redesigns: The Process Behind Building Websites for Financial Services Companies

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Full Audio Transcript:

00:00:00 - 00:28:09

Lauren Hong

All right, guys, you're in for a treat today. We have two amazing, talented team members from Out & About. I'm going to let them introduce themselves before we get into our topic around really building successful relationships when it comes to partnering with an outsourced marketing partner. So, Karen, Tiffany, who wants to go first?

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00:28:11 - 00:56:10

Tiffany Silverberg

I'll go. Okay. I'm Tiffany. I’m the content director at Out & About. So I work with multiple levels. I work with our director team to oversee strategic implementation and integration of all the different marketing plans. But then I also work with our copy team to oversee all the content, make sure voice is aligned, and all that good stuff.

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00:56:10 - 01:15:13

Tiffany Silverberg

I also work with the project management team to make sure things are off the ground. So with various levels, working with everyone. And I've been at Out & About for about seven years, so I've been in lots of these conversations and seen it all go down. Your turn, Karen.

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01:15:19 - 01:39:11

Karen Villalta

Thanks, Tiffany. So my name is Karen. I'm the senior project manager at Out & About. My role includes taking care of our project plan. So making sure that when we get going and get started, we have an actual plan with everything we're going to do. So from inception to completion, I'm there to make sure things are moving along at a consistent pace.

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01:39:11 - 02:01:23

Karen Villalta

And we keep the client really in tune with what's going on. I'm the glue between the project management team and the director team. So if there's a change in strategy or any project we want to tackle, I make sure it makes sense with the direction we're going in and make sure it’s folded into the project plan..

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02:01:26 - 02:25:16

Lauren Hong

Awesome. And I'm Lauren. I wear a lot of different hats but mostly in business development. And working alongside with strategy as accounts move forward but primarily in business development and helping the company grow. So with that, let's talk about successful relationships. This is a really tricky question, right? Because you can work with an outsourced provider but sometimes they're working with you for a very limited time.

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02:25:29 - 02:42:09

Lauren Hong

It might be for a quick project or maybe it's a year long but with a lot of our partners, they're multiple-year engagements. Not everyone but we have a number we've worked with for multiple years. And so that partnership is one of our values. It's really critical to what we're doing.

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02:42:09 - 03:10

Lauren Hong

So, if you have identified the agency to work with, as being an agency, it could be with another agency, I'd love to just hear from you guys. What are some best practices to really incorporate that outside agency into your company? Like for us, we lead with partnership. There's different philosophies or values across the board.

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03:10 - 03:12:08

Lauren Hong

But for our clients, for our partners, we're working with them. What are some of the best practices you guys have seen to make it really feel like a cohesive, seamless relationship?

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03:14:28 - 03:36:14

Karen Villalta

I think it's just really important to establish goals right upfront. And, I mean, coming from the project management side, of course, and building those things out, just having clear objectives and timelines we want to hit so we know where we're going and how we're going to get there.

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03:36:16 - 03:52:16

Karen Villalta

I think having open lines of communication as well is really, really important in terms of talking with the client and making sure we understand each other — we’re aligned. I think starting off with a strong fit is what really helps that part of it.

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03:52:18 - 03:54:05

Lauren Hong

Totally. Tiffany?

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03:54:07 - 04:12:11

Tiffany Silverberg

I was going to say we always talk about clear swim lanes. So we sort of know who's doing what. And I think that helps. Karen is so good at keeping everything organized, like those project plans. And I think that's where this all comes in: okay, we're in charge of this.

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04:12:12 - 04:17:14

Tiffany Silverberg

You guys are doing that, by the time. So I think that keeps it really clear.

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04:17:16 - 04:38:03

Lauren Hong

Yeah. And to that point, I think sometimes marketing can just be like it's everywhere, and you get a bug in your ear from someone who’s like, oh, we should be doing this or this thing comes up. And so I really appreciate, not just only the team on a strategic level but Karen on your side, just making sure we're keeping along with those priorities as the business is shifting but then also helping to tune out the noise where it doesn't apply so we actually yield those results..

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04:38:15 - 04:59:03

Lauren Hong

Because being able to yield certain results requires a certain amount of effort that's put toward it. So keeping us on track is really important. Okay. So with that, what are some common mismatches between expectations and reality? So as you come in and you're like this is going to be great.

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04:59:03 - 05:20:22

Lauren Hong

Everything's going to be taken care of, all these things, right? We're going to have every single marketing top spinning. How do we manage that? And what should folks expect if they're going to partner with an agency as far as timeline or just deliverables and all that?

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05:25:14 - 05:51:18

Karen Villalta

Honestly, I'm not sure how I want to word this but a mismatch sometimes comes in with the speed of wanting results. So, sometimes it's we want to do everything and we want to see results. But sometimes in marketing things take time to actually see. We put a lot of effort into things but it just takes time for it to really show.

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05:51:19 - 06:10:08

Karen Villalta

So just having that patience, maybe communicating that. Things like SEO specifically, that we can totally tweak and get things going, get it started. But we do need a little bit of time to really reap the rewards and see how that's performing. So that's one thing that came to mind right away.

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06:12:10 - 06:16:06

Lauren Hong

Have any other thoughts on that? 

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06:16:08 - 06:41:11

Tiffany Silverberg

Yeah. The timing thing is the biggest one. And I think it's also just, I mean, we always ask the question what does success look like and feel like or what would us working together, what would that success look like? I think just having those clear conversations upfront, like Karen was saying earlier, to kind of see, like you were saying, Lauren, there's just so many things that marketing can be doing.

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06:41:11 - 06:58:00

Tiffany Silverberg

And so I think kind of narrowing that down and figuring out, okay, what should this relationship look like and what kind of results do we want to see? I think that can help too, because marketing can just become this crazy creative all over the place sort of thing. And then we're not really sure what we're doing here.

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06:58:00 - 07:13:27

Lauren Hong

So I think it also depends on the type of outsourced partner, because sometimes you have an outsourced partner where the model's much more like off the shelf, where you can just grab it and go, right? You can grab it, apply it, or you're coming in and it's very formulaic, like you're going to get three social media posts every week.

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07:13:27 - 07:36:17

Lauren Hong

You're going to get one blog post, you're going to get this, you're going to get that. And it may or may not be off-the-shelf content. And then you also have the other extreme, which is everything is hyper, hyper customized down to the period on the page. It's just very detailed and we're kind in between that but we definitely lean on the much more customized side, and that takes time.

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07:37:02 - 07:56:10

Lauren Hong

And really being able to understand the company's voice, their brand, their goals, all of these pieces, just like hiring a new employee. It takes time for us to learn that and be able to partner with companies. So I think it's important to keep that in mind too; it's not like you just turn it on and all of a sudden we can read minds, right?

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07:56:12 - 08:12:19

Lauren Hong

We're learning from that feedback. So when you're in that role too, you're seeing all the feedback that's coming in. And Karen, you are as well. With all the back and forth, what kind of things you guys see really well, if we're in an engagement that helps us as a team to be able to get to know that company better.

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08:13:01 - 08:24:19

Lauren Hong

From either their voice and tone or from their design, what are some best practices there so you can have that cohesive relationship in communicating feedback or what have you?

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08:24:21 - 08:26:20

Tiffany Silverberg

And I guess there's like three questions there.

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08:26:22 - 08:41:24

Lauren Hong

I know, I know. I mean how do we make sure companies are providing clear feedback so at the end of the day, we can connect it to a stronger relationship so we know them better?

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08:41:26 - 09:10:04

Tiffany Silverberg

My first answer to your question there was trying to figure out value alignment. And sometimes when we say values, it's very like, oh, we're all kind or something but really trying to figure out what drives that company. What are they all about? Do they need just volume, so much volume kind of quickly or sometimes the leadership just has certain quality things that are super important to them.

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09:10:04 - 09:37:08

Tiffany Silverberg

So really trying to narrow down what really makes them happy. And that comes from content, that comes from hearing feedback that just comes from everywhere. So really trying to get to the heart of that. But as far as best practices, Karen you can probably answer this better but I think having really good systems in place so people know where to comment and when to comment, I think probably helps.

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09:37:11 - 10:06:00

Karen Villalta

Yeah, I think we're really good at having that lane open. We use Weezer project management and Asana;  we're in there daily. And so we're keeping lines of communication open on a daily basis, letting everyone know where things are at.

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10:06:12 - 10:27:03

Karen Villalta

On every Friday, we send progress reports on where projects are at. So, I think specifically for our clients, we do a really good job at letting them know of the progress, if there's any stopgaps  we need their eyes on so we can move forward, you know, x, y, z.

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10:32:07 - 10:54:22

Tiffany Silverberg

Well, Karen, I actually have a question for you too about this because part of gathering feedback is like, who's our point person? So I'm curious what you would say as far as best practices from the client and about who's providing that feedback, like, should the whole team be doing it? Should just the main point of contact be or the whole leadership team? What do you think works best from that direction?

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10:54:25 - 11:20:03

Karen Villalta

You know, I really do think that sometimes that's client dependent because we do have some clients where we do have one specific point person we speak to. And that same thing for the client speaking to us, there's one main person everything filters through. But depending on how the company works, sometimes there's multiple people who need to see things.

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11:20:03 - 11:42:11

Karen Villalta

Asana is a great tool for that because when somebody has given approval on our client's team, we can send it to the next person. And then if we're on the same page and we know who gets the final, how should I say, you know to go through person A, then person B, and then person C, and we all know that.

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11:42:11 - 11:49:06

Karen Villalta

We internally know that makes it really easy.

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11:49:09 - 12:05:25

Tiffany Silverberg

Yeah. I was just thinking of a couple clients. So in a few meetings recently where it's a bunch of them involved. But then they were like, no, this person — whatever they say goes — they're the ones leading the charge and we trust them.

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12:05:25 - 12:20:12

Tiffany Silverberg

So we'll all give our feedback and we're happy. Especially creatively if we're doing design or creative type things. But it's always nice when they're like, okay, that person Bob gets the final say or whatever.

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12:20:14 - 12:32:09

Karen Villalta

That's true. I think that just comes with getting to know the client as well. I think we're nimble and can fit the mold that is necessary in that aspect.

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12:32:11 - 12:47:16

Lauren Hong

Yeah. Speaking of that, you have mentioned a little bit more about actually receiving the content or the feedback on the content. So just how we use Google Docs and best practices for providing design feedback as well.

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12:47:19 - 13:08:15

Karen Villalta

Yeah. I think Google Docs is a great tool because you really can just highlight whatever needs to get changed and add comments right there. And I think clients really like that because you can see the product or what we're putting together. Same thing with design. It's easy to just highlight what needs to be changed and add a comment.

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13:08:15 - 13:28:26

Karen Villalta

And I guess the way we work is just let us know in Asana when it's been reviewed and we'll go in there and make the changes. So, that's really helpful. I think it's clear to everybody as well, when we need eyes on it again or another version that's ready to get reviewed.

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13:28:29 - 13:52:16

Tiffany Silverberg

Yeah. Especially on designs. I mean, we'll speak for the rest of our team as they go in there. But when you type it out separately or just leave comments on a Google Doc it's like after the second blue line, I want the green line longer. It just takes so long to go back and forth and make sure you're making all those big changes.

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13:52:18 - 13:58:22

Tiffany Silverberg

So it's really nice when it's just directly and they're like, I want this line longer.

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13:58:24 - 14:14

Lauren Hong

Totally. Just the clarity versus…

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14:14 - 14:01:27

Tiffany Silverberg

…the vagueness.

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14:02:00 - 14:22:07

Karen Villalta

Another thing we've actually been using too is we've been making customized videos showing designs and talking through them. So that's really helpful for the clients because they get to not only see the deliverable but also a walkthrough about that specific deliverable. So that's been helpful as well.

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14:22:09 - 14:53:03

Lauren Hong

One of the pieces I appreciate that the copy and design team does is also taking in those lessons learned for the voice and tone for the client. And that is then embedded into the kickoffs for the different types of projects. So we don't forget certain things that might be really important. It might be like we always want the logo to be bigger or we don't use these kinds of words or what have you but we're learning that just like an employee would learn what makes your company you.

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14:52:06 - 15:08:17

Tiffany Silverberg

Yes, I have a great example of how we were working with the client and then all of a sudden we were like, you guys always spell adviser with an E. They were like, we do. They didn't even recognize it. And they're like, yes. And we will now document that so every time we use that word, it will be with an E and not an O.

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15:09:27 - 15:13:09

Lauren Hong

These little things you don't even realize you do, right? 

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15:13:09 - 15:14:11

Tiffany Silverberg

Yeah. They didn’t even realize we all did that.

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15:14:11 - 15:39:10

Lauren Hong

Okay. Got another question here. So where as we're rounding out, what is the number one mistake. And again I kind of hate to even use the word mistake but maybe lessons learned that companies make when they've decided they want to outsourced versus hiring totally in-house. What kind of examples have we seen of maybe snags we run into where there's friction between outsourced and in-house?

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15:39:12 - 16:04:27

Karen Villalta

Well, I think sometimes we've run into situations where we have a client that's really enthusiastic and really wants us to run with things but internally they're dealing with certain types of bureaucracy or red tape, and that makes it really difficult for both them and us to be able to move forward on specific projects.

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16:05:28 - 16:18:23

Karen Villalta

I'm not entirely sure what the solution would be. Or how. That's just something to keep in mind, I guess, moving forward.

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16:18:25 - 16:37:19

Lauren Hong

Yeah, I have an example where there is a ton of red tape and there were numerous loopholes we had to go through. I think it was a website project where they ended up sending us computers and we were trying to build it and then it has to go through multiple layers just because of all the security and the things that are in there.

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16:37:26 - 16:54:05

Lauren Hong

So I think in this particular example, some of the upfront questions to ask about outsourced versus in-house are internally understanding what you can do and what the regulations are and then understanding what it would take if you were to have an outsourced team. And can you get through that red tape as you were alluding to earlier?

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16:54:12 - 17:06:21

Lauren Hong

So, just trying to find that balance. But if you're able to ask those upfront questions, to be able to navigate the red tape or even see if it's possible to be able to do that. So, Tiffany, any thoughts?

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17:06:23 - 17:45:05

Tiffany Silverberg

Yeah, I was just going to say on sort of a lighter level but it's the same issue I think sometimes when there's — I don't call it conflict like internal conflict but it's not necessarily conflict — but just a lack of alignment for the marketing. So that's like the bureaucracy is on another level where they literally can't move forward for certain roles but even just a smaller team where everyone's maybe not on the same page about what the target market's going to be or where we want to move forward creatively or how creative we want to be versus how conservative with design.

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17:45:05 - 17:58:14

Tiffany Silverberg

I think those kinds of misalignment internally can be a problem and can lead to maybe we shouldn't be outsourcing it because we're not really ready to hand it over yet. 

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17:58:17 - 18:14:24

Lauren Hong

Yeah. And those are good moments to pause, to be able to say, is there a consultant we can work with, can we tap into our network, to really be able to internally kind of unpack something so if you are going to hire a marketing partner, there's clarity and you can really align your efforts on that.

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18:15:05 - 18:36:17

Tiffany Silverberg

Because we can come in and plug in really well, and be that arm. And like we've been talking about the copy team and the design team and the management team, keeping everything organized and operational but we can't create something that's not there or we can't manage the team internally, we can't decide who's right, the president or the CEO or whatever.

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18:36:17 - 18:40:27

Tiffany Silverberg

So I think that can be an issue.

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18:41:06 - 19:03:27

Lauren Hong

That's right. I've also seen situations where we can act as an outsourced partner but the company just grows really fast or they grow over the course of five, seven, 10 years. And so because of the size, it necessitates a higher level of conversations and orchestration of all different departments and also internally working within systems.

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19:04:08 - 19:25:10

Lauren Hong

And so that also is, I think, a question to ask a particular provider upfront: how in-house are you, do you actually show up and are you there? And is that part of the engagement, to physically show up to be a part of it or what does that look like and how much do you invest or don't embed into the relationship.

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19:25:10 - 19:51:28

Lauren Hong

So there's more kind of maybe upfront questions that sometimes aren't asked. Or maybe there's a misalignment of expectations with where you get into the engagement. And so I think being able to get clarity on that upfront is really important. Any other final thoughts, guys, for just best practices and partnering with outsourcing.

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19:52:00 - 20:13:15

Tiffany Silverberg

I was just going to say we love to be organized. And Karen leads a team really well, keeping the trains running. So, I guess that's the biggest thing is if you need someone coming in to wrangle it all together and get it off the ground. 

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20:13:17 - 20:33:20

Karen Villalta

Yeah. Well, again, I think we're excited. Our team is definitely excited to jump in and wants to help and be their go-to marketing agency. We're passionate about our work and we look forward to partnering. And I think that really shows when we start engagements with clients.

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20:33:22 - 20:51:24

Lauren Hong

So oh my gosh, awesome. Thank you guys for sharing best practices and marketing best practices or should say best practices for working with the outsourced marketing team and then marketing best practices for how to just communicate, engage, think strategically, and really find the right partner and the right fit for where you're at as a company.

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20:51:24 - 20:55:06

Lauren Hong

So, yeah. Good stuff. Thank you.

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20:55:06 - 21:02:10

Tiffany Silverberg

Guys. Thanks.

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We talked with Jake about:

• How to create exceptional client experiences while adapting to changes
• The power of client referrals for the success and growth of your firm 
• The challenges that come along with growth as the financial advisor landscape evolves

About Jake DeKinder:

Jake DeKinder is the head of Client Communication at Dimensional Fund Advisors, where he oversees a broad range of initiatives designed to foster deeper connections with clients. His role encompasses managing conferences, webcasts, industry events, study groups, and communities, ensuring these interactions are both impactful and aligned with client needs. Jake transitioned into this role after years on the sales team, recognizing the need for more structured communication efforts. He leads a team dedicated to integrating direct feedback from advisors into their offerings. Under his leadership, Dimensional’s virtual engagements have thrived, especially during the COVID-19 pandemic.

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Featured Resources 

• Jake DeKinder on LinkedIn
• Dimensional Fund Advisors on Twitter
• Dimensional.com

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Enjoyed This? You’ll also love:  

• Navigating and Optimizing the Strengths of Your Team with Gretchen Pisano
• Business Growth Tips for Accountants, Bookkeepers, and Financial Services Business Owners 
• Reaching Gen Z: How Financial Services Companies Can Engage and Hire the Next Generation with Mary Wisniewski

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Full Audio Transcript:

00:00:00 - 22:20:00

Lauren Hong

All right. Well, Jake, thank you so much for joining us today. Excited to dive in and hear more about you, your role at Dimensional, and specifically trends around what Dimensional is seeing for firms across the board. So, before we dive into all of that, can you just share a little bit about yourself? How did you get into this role, and what are you specifically doing with the channel today?

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00:22:00 - 00:42:01

Jake DeKinder

Yeah, definitely. Thanks for having me on. Looking forward to the conversation. And yeah. So head of client communications, what does that mean? Well, a couple different things fall underneath the role. It's really everything around our conferences, our webcasts we put on, our industry events, our study groups, the communities we do. I think about it kind of like scaling interactions we have with all our clients.

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00:42:04 - 00:56:14

Jake DeKinder

And I got into the role after I was on the sales team for a number of years. And you go back to ‘14, ‘15, ‘16, sort of that time period. We started to say, hey, we're doing a lot of this stuff for clients but we maybe need to expand what we're doing, get a little bit more systematic about it.

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00:56:16 - 01:10:04

Jake DeKinder

So I moved into that and I have a great team that works with me in those four areas. And I think it's really good because everything we design is based on direct feedback from what we hear from the advisors working with Dimensional, like, hey, if we think about our conferences, this is what we're looking for.

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01:10:12 - 01:22:23

Jake DeKinder

We love the fact that you guys are having an increasing presence at industry events we're at, and then certainly the virtual stuff, especially during COVID, was an absolute home run for us. And we're continuing to push on that.

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01:22:26 - 01:39:00

Lauren Hong

Super interesting. I love that you guys really listen to what clients need and then are able to act on that. So I also know you run a number of surveys, right? And you're following the trends in the data with what goes along there. What are you seeing from firms? What is some of what the data is telling us?

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01:39:02 - 01:57:26

Jake DeKinder

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think a lot of people who are probably listening understand there's been just a massive amount of M&A that's taken place in the industry. So I think that really is the biggest trend. And that brings up a lot of, I think, opportunities but also challenges. With firms, I think the big question I have is are we at an inflection point?

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01:57:26 - 02:17:11

Jake DeKinder

I think M&A will still continue but will it continue at the rate we've seen over the last five-plus years? And I think there's a lot of reasons to say maybe it may not. I mean, there's a lot of firms that have already been rolled up, which means you're working with a smaller opportunity set.

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02:17:13 - 02:39:19

Jake DeKinder

You've got a situation now where you've got higher interest rates, which obviously plays into any type of deal activity. And I think also people are realizing that, hey, listen, we experienced a lot of growth but we experienced a lot of inorganic growth by rolling up these firms. And we now need to think about what we do at this point and how do we achieve a great client experience and achieve organic growth?

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02:39:26 - 02:53:04

Jake DeKinder

I think there's a lot of firms that are saying, hey, there's maybe a few more challenges around this as we switch from inorganic to organic. So those are the interesting trends I think we've seen. And the one, in my opinion, to kind of watch as we go forward.

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02:53:07 - 03:09:11

Lauren Hong

Yeah, interesting. We see that as well. So a number of firms where they've gone through massive M&A and then they get to a place where there's operations to unpack. And then how do you continue that growth at that growth clip? So anything else you guys are seeing on the trends piece for firms?

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03:09:13 - 03:28:06

Jake DeKinder

We're starting to see one emerge that I think is a really good sign. You know, for years there was a concern about shortage of talent and shortage of young talent that's coming into the industry. And while I think there's still a massive need out there — because you do have a lot of people who have been in the industry for a while who are looking to rotate out and retire at some point — we’ve seen an uptick in younger people coming into the industry.

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03:28:08 - 03:45:27

Jake DeKinder

You look at a lot of the financial planning programs that have been developed or are developing at universities. Great sign. We actually saw a tremendous amount of hiring with the firms working with Dimensional through the pandemic. So coming out of it, that was awesome to see.

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03:45:29 - 04:03:29

Jake DeKinder

So I think there's still a long way to go. And we definitely need more good people to keep coming into the industry. But that to me is really exciting. And to anybody I talked to who’s coming in, I say, listen, you have a huge opportunity in front of you. There's a huge need for you in the industry.

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04:04:02 - 04:27:23

Jake DeKinder

You get to do right by people, to take care of people, because this is incredibly, incredibly important to your clients and your prospects’ futures. And quite frankly, you can make a great living for yourself. And as you progress through the industry, you can achieve a really nice work-life balance. So the financial advice space to me is so attractive for people in their 20s because there's just ample opportunity to have a great, meaningful career.

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04:27:26 - 04:40:18

Lauren Hong

I really appreciate what you're saying. You're right. There's been a lot of investment internally within firms as well as from outside organizations to really bring in new talent but then also to be able to retain that talent as well.

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04:40:18 - 05:01:25

Jake DeKinder

One other thing, and this is probably an ongoing trend, but just the explosion of different investment choices and different investment options. I think firms are really having to kind of weed through what makes sense. Do we want to try something new?

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05:01:25 - 05:21:12

Jake DeKinder

Are there asset classes we need to explore? I think there's a lot of chatter about stuff in private markets, private equity, and private credit. So to me that's nothing new. There's always exciting new products coming about. But that's an ongoing trend I think every firm has to kind of wade through of where do we want to go from an investment standpoint?

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05:21:14 - 05:25:08

Lauren Hong

Yep. That's now very fair. Do right by their clients as well.

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05:25:08 - 05:26:22

Jake DeKinder

So yeah, for sure.

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05:26:28 - 05:38:28

Lauren Hong

With all these trends and things going on, what is Dimensional doing to be able to support advisors, guide them through these conversations and make sure they're really equipped with the resources to be able to help navigate kind of what's ahead?

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05:38:28 - 06:03:04

Jake DeKinder

So, if we go back to the first trend on M&A, I think that's something we've had a really good pulse on ever since the trend started. And we've always tried to make sure firms have eyes wide open as they go into it, right? It's not just about necessarily getting the deal done but it's understanding what that's going to mean to the point that you brought it from an operations standpoint, what that's going to be from an investment philosophy standpoint, what that's going to mean from a cultural standpoint.

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06:03:06 - 06:23:04

Jake DeKinder

So really, I say having conversations and helping educate firms on what it means to go into this M&A space. We've got events we put on — something like our deals and succession conference — where we'll actually bring in not only our own knowledge but also outside expertise to say, hey, as you go forward with this, these are the things you need to be aware of.

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06:23:04 - 06:47:18

Jake DeKinder

These are the resources you can ultimately lean on. And so I think that's great because again, at the end of the day, we want to make sure it comes down to what's the investor experience. Certainly we want the firms to get matched up with the right ones. We want culture maintained. But the biggest thing for us is that these firms that have built great businesses, how do you ensure that whatever transition you go through, your clients are well taken care of?

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06:47:20 - 07:09:18

Jake DeKinder

So that's exciting on the M&A front. On the younger advisors coming into the space, one of the things we've always prided ourselves on is taking a very educational approach to investment management, educating around what's going on in the industry, what it means to create that great financial experience. So if you look this year, we'll put on probably 70 or so conferences here in the U.S of different types.

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07:09:18 - 07:38:24

Jake DeKinder

Those can be from introductory conferences around investments to communication workshops to practice management symposiums to business development workshops so that education is ongoing. From Dimensional, one of the things I think we've done nicely to help support the advisors in recent years is really get more customized firm training. So we put on Dimensional events but we get asked all the time, hey, can you come in and work with my team around sales training?

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07:38:24 - 07:58:21

Jake DeKinder

Can you work around communication training? Can you come in and do future firm exercises so we as an organization can think about what we want to look like three years, five years, 10 years from now? And what do we have to put in place to be successful to do that? So I think that sort of ongoing education, ongoing training, is something we're continuing to ramp up.

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07:58:21 - 08:20:20

Jake DeKinder

And I mentioned the virtual aspect coming out of COVID, that's a huge part. We do a lot of in-person stuff. I'm on the road a lot. But we do a lot of virtual stuff as well. So that's an area where I think we're continuing to invest. A lot of the studies that you mentioned, whether it's our benchmarking study, investor study, arming firms with data to empower them to make really good decisions.

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08:20:22 - 08:45:13

Jake DeKinder

And then I think on the resources side and on primarily client-ready resources, if you went back about 15 years ago, most of our stuff was much more in the weeds research, deep dive. We've realized that's important and that's in our DNA. But we've really got to help on the investor education and on the communication front, and not just with the training but actually develop resources advisors can use in those conversations.

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08:45:15 - 09:02:12

Lauren Hong

Oh, super interesting. I appreciate that you guys are having those real conversations. And to be able to pull them out for leadership. Talking with others and what have you, I often see that folks sometimes want to go down, for example, an M&A route, and they have an opportunity to really unpack that and hear what that looks like and go, that's not the right route for me.

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09:02:12 - 09:07:15

Lauren Hong

And so they can really make those shifts before they get too far ahead.

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09:07:18 - 09:10:21

Jake DeKinder

Yeah, I would agree with you on that. Yeah. Go ahead.

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09:10:23 - 09:29:28

Lauren Hong

Going back to the data conversation, now that you're arming firms with these different tools, are you seeing any kind of the creme de la creme. What are the top firms doing that you see is maybe a successful trend as they look ahead? For instance, I've heard a lot of COI referrals are going away, right?

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09:29:28 - 09:41:00

Lauren Hong

How do we diversify lead sources or is it M&A or is it sort of a different bend on that? What are the successful firms — what I’ll call successful growth firms — doing?

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09:41:02 - 09:57:18

Jake DeKinder

Yeah. It's a great question. And it's one we get all the time. I do think you still see a huge amount of the growth coming from referrals and a lot of this coming directly from client referrals. I think CIO for referrals is maybe dropping off just a little bit.

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09:57:18 - 10:14:27

Jake DeKinder

But if you have strong ones and you can nurture those, those can still be incredibly effective for you. Certainly if we look at anything in the digital space, anything through social, you're starting to see some firms have more and more success there. And you would expect that because that's where people are starting to hang out. That's where people are starting to get their information from.

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10:14:27 - 10:38:24

Jake DeKinder

So if you do that well, you'd expect to see some success as well. But again, a big part of it is just coming from the existing client base and from referrals and the firms we see be successful, or ones that put a referral plan in place and actually do something about it. And I know that sounds so basic but I can't tell you how many conversations I've had over the years where you have a great discussion with them.

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10:38:24 - 10:57:27

Jake DeKinder

You tee someone up with good referral resources, a good referral program. Maybe it's somebody like Dean Allison. They love it. They're fired up about it. And then you come back six months later and 12 months later and you say, hey, what did you do about it? And I go, I didn't do anything about it. And again, a lot of it's just sort of that basic blocking and tackling you just got to do.

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10:57:28 - 11:18:06

Jake DeKinder

So the firms that are having success, yes, they're doing all of these things but they hold themselves accountable to actually go and execute on the stuff. Because again, it doesn't have to be complicated. If you're delivering that level of service, if you're truly delivering value to the client, you should be able to get referrals out of that. That's what you're doing.

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11:18:06 - 11:29:08

Jake DeKinder

You're creating a referral experience. You just have to have a systematic way so you make sure across the firm you're asking for the referrals, you're following up on it and you're doing it in all of those meetings.

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11:29:11 - 11:33:17

Lauren Hong

Let's see those different touchpoints and be able to create those referral moments as well. 

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11:33:17 - 11:35:20

Jake DeKinder

Sure, for sure.

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11:35:22 - 11:52:07

Lauren Hong

And when we look at the next few years, are there any challenges you see ahead? You've got an upcoming election, a potential looming recession. There's all these things that are going on, not to mention all the data sets you all have, that I would assume would impact that.

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11:52:08 - 11:54:22

Lauren Hong

Look ahead. What are you seeing?

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11:54:24 - 12:11:19

Jake DeKinder

Yeah, on the investment side and sort of the events that take place, there's always, as I like to say, there's always kind of the crisis of the day that's looming. And it doesn't mean it's not important, right? The U.S. elections are incredibly important for us here as citizens of the U.S. You've got a lot of global tensions, wars that are going on.

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12:11:19 - 12:28:19

Jake DeKinder

These are not good things. Do we need to be thinking about recessions and all of these things? Certainly. But there's always that looming next event. So on the investment side, there's nothing necessarily that says like, oh, we need to change up what we're doing or anything there. If you know Dimensional, we're pretty consistent on it.

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12:28:23 - 12:45:20

Jake DeKinder

Now, the one thing I will say is that we've definitely moved away from this idea of it's in-market prices. Don't worry about it. Don't pay attention to it. I don't think that's a satisfying response for investors. You have to be able to make some intelligent comments about it. You have to be able to sort of converse and let people share what's stressing them out.

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12:45:22 - 13:22

Jake DeKinder

But then you want to kind of move them down a path of, but we've looked into it. Here's what our approach is. If you think about the trends that are going on and potential challenges you see ahead, I don't know if they're challenges but here's a couple things I think about.

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13:27 - 13:23:07

Jake DeKinder

Let's talk a little bit about fees within the industry. And a couple of things you've seen, you've seen custodial fees I think pressed down quite a bit, especially as firms have gotten larger and scale the ability to access the markets, the cost of that has come down. You look at asset management fees and certainly here at Dimensional, we've lowered our fees dramatically.

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13:23:07 - 13:39:14

Jake DeKinder

And I think that's okay. You have to respond to industry trends. And we know there's been a move toward indexing. Although you're starting to see that kind of shift back here. I do wonder about the advisor fee. Now that said, for the last 15 or 20 years, people have been making the same argument of there'll be fee compression, there'll be fee competition.

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13:39:16 - 14:01:25

Jake DeKinder

For the most part, you haven't really seen it. I mean, you have to come down a little bit. Sure, but people have needed to continue to expand the services they deliver and the value to maintain those fees. So that's another thing people need to have on their radars. And I think they probably do. One of the things I wonder about is what we just talked about — M&A — we talked about all this consolidation that went on.

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14:01:27 - 14:23:07

Jake DeKinder

And if you go back to when we started the advisor business at Dimensional about 35 years ago, you had a very concentrated industry, right? You had a couple of really big players. They sort of dominated the market. And then there was this idea of this independent, fee-only advisor that was starting to emerge. And so you really had fragmentation, good fragmentation within the industry for several decades.

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14:23:09 - 14:44:07

Jake DeKinder

Now we're back and we're seeing consolidation again. And I think industries go through this natural sort of fragmentation and consolidation. So it's nothing special to financial advisors. It happens in a lot of different industries. But that does bring up questions of what is that going to mean in terms of the professionals you have inside of the organization?

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14:44:07 - 14:57:02

Jake DeKinder

You know, we talked about, hey, if you're going to roll up a bunch of firms, if you're going to make yourself bigger, how do you maintain culture? How do you make sure it's still a place people want to work? What's the impact of private equity? What's the expectation for growth rates? How am I going to get organic growth out of it?

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14:57:04 - 15:25:17

Jake DeKinder

And so I do think a trend you want to watch and a challenge, I think for some larger firms, is how do you ensure whatever firms you brought in, you maintain culture? And how do you ensure that 32-, 33-, 35-year-old advisor who was with a $3 or $400 million firm and was really happy, and now they're in a large organization, is still happy within a larger organization, and we're starting to see some breakaway from those big firms.

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15:25:19 - 15:41:02

Jake DeKinder

And I don't want to say that bigger doesn't mean you can't deliver a great client experience. I just think you have to have it on the forefront. And there will be some advisors who say, I want to work for that small or medium-sized firm. I want to start my own thing. I don't want to be a part of a large organization.

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15:41:02 - 15:52:02

Jake DeKinder

So I think it's an exciting trend to watch, and one we're definitely seeing a little bit more of quarter to quarter as we're out there having conversations.

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15:52:04 - 15:58:23

Lauren Hong

Yep. I see that as well. And just because we're a big organization doesn't mean you can't have a great culture too, right?

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15:58:24 - 16:26

Jake DeKinder

Completely. Okay.

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16:29 - 16:14:27

Lauren Hong

Yeah a lot of pieces to untangle. All right. So I want to just shift a little bit. I want to talk about Dimensional 360. So do you mind explaining for folks who are not familiar with Dimensional 360? What is it? And, how can we learn more about this platform?

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16:14:29 - 16:36:21

Jake DeKinder

Yeah. So Dimensional 360 really brings together, I think, everything we've built out over the last three-plus decades on the service and the resources and the support for financial professionals. I think about Dimensional 360 as everything beyond the investment solutions, the investment products we bring to client relationships. So three big buckets in that area are investments, communication, and strategy.

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16:36:23 - 16:54:08

Jake DeKinder

When we say investments, it's not just the investment solutions or the products, right? It's the research. It's the thought leadership. It's the analytics. It's some of the investment tools we've built. Something like our expanded SMA offering and the technology interface and the reporting that goes behind. And beyond that, it's the UMA offering we rolled out.

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16:54:08 - 17:13:29

Jake DeKinder

So you've got all these things on investments that can help people inside of their business. Once you get the investment piece of it dialed, you have to figure out how you're going to go talk about it. And that can be talking about your investment approach or it's answering a lot of the common client questions that are going to come in around recessions, geopolitical events, inflation, elections, all of those.

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17:14:04 - 17:14:21

Lauren Hong

Events of the day.

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17:14:21 - 17:31:21

Jake DeKinder

Yes, it's the news. It's quite frankly a lot of the conversations advisors are actually having. Let's be realistic, there aren't that many clients who walk in and say tell me more, tell me more about the size premium or tell me more about the value premium, right? It's important but those aren't the questions people are getting.

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17:31:21 - 17:47:18

Jake DeKinder

So that's a communication bucket. And if you got your investments dialed, you know how to talk about it. You're probably going to have some business success. And that's where the strategy piece comes into it. So all of the things we do around our benchmarking study helps firms say, hey, I'm a $500 million firm. I want to grow.

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17:47:18 - 18:07:18

Jake DeKinder

Tell me what a $1 billion firm looks like. It's the investor study we run to say, hey, we've got over 80, 90,000 data points, survey responses from investors all over the world saying this is what's important about a relationship with a financial advisor, powerful data we can use. It's some of the M&A stuff we talked about.

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18:07:18 - 18:20:14

Jake DeKinder

It's the future firm stuff. It's the visioning exercises. So you put all of this together, the investments, the communication, and strategy. And it's really all designed to just support that financial professional in what they're trying to deliver for their clients.

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18:20:16 - 18:26:04

Lauren Hong

And where can folks learn more about that? You have to be in a Dimensional firm to be able to get access to that?

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18:26:06 - 18:43:25

Jake DeKinder

Yeah, if you want to read a little bit more about it, you can go on to our public site, dfa dot com, and you can take a look at some of the information that's on there. But certainly we have a password-protected site. And I think a lot of the deeper stuff we start to do with firms are definitely ones that are working with us a little bit more comprehensively.

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18:43:25 - 19:06:19

Jake DeKinder

Again, we're a for-profit business like anybody else. And we want to work with firms or it makes business sense there. But it doesn't really matter what sort of type of firm you are or what channel you may operate in. Dimensional 360 is designed so any firm that's looking to deliver a great client experience and quite frankly, leverage 35 years of experience from a global asset manager like Dimensional.

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19:06:21 - 19:11:29

Jake DeKinder

They can lean into it. And as I always say, I promise you, you're going to find stuff in there that's going to help you in your business.

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19:12:01 - 19:17:18

Lauren Hong

Absolutely. And is there anything you want to touch on that we have not covered today?

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19:17:20 - 19:32:20

Jake DeKinder

No, I'm just really excited about where the industry is going. I think there's all of these challenges out there and you read a lot of I don't want to say a lot but sometimes I feel like it can be a little bit negative. And people pick on what's going wrong in the industry.

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19:32:20 - 19:56:00

Jake DeKinder

But you look at the cost of good financial advice and quite frankly, good investment management, it's come down. And that's a great thing. You look at how much more educated investors are about what's available to them and what's important. That's out there. You look at the experience that really goes from the wirehouses to the independent broker dealers to the RIAs to the banks.

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19:56:06 - 20:17:13

Jake DeKinder

All of them are looking to deliver a great client experience, and I think they really are. So I'm incredibly optimistic about where this industry is at, where it's going, what the potential is. And again, as long as we keep our focus on the investor, as long as all of us keep our focus on that and know that's why we're waking up every day and doing what we're doing, I get really fired up about this stuff, right?

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20:17:13 - 20:19:06

Lauren Hong

You take good care of people and do good work.

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20:19:06 - 20:21:01

Jake DeKinder

So exactly.

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20:21:03 - 20:36:22

Lauren Hong

Excellent. Well, Jake, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for sharing more about what's happening, what you all are seeing at Dimensional not only with the different studies you have going on, the trends, what you're doing about it. We touched on Dimensional 360 quite a bit. Really appreciate your time today. And for folks, we will include links as well.

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20:36:25 - 20:40:11

Lauren Hong

And a transcript below for more details. So thank you again.

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20:40:13 - 20:45:25

Jake DeKinder

Great. Thank you.

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We talked with Natalie about:

• How to overcome imposter syndrome while pursuing intentional growth
• How advisors can attain success by customizing best practices to fit their unique goals, team, and clients
• The importance of alignment between leaders and their teams

About Natalie Bergsma

Natalie Bergsma is a seasoned consultant and executive coach with over 20 years of experience working in the financial services industry. Her journey began unexpectedly, shifting from academia in physical chemistry to financial services, where she became a key player in helping advisory firms implement best practices. After realizing her career path was being driven by external expectations, she pivoted to focus on personal fulfillment and professional growth. Natalie has built a successful practice, BeyondFA, that combines her consulting expertise with a strong focus on mindset and personal development, guiding advisors and firms toward purposeful growth. She is passionate about helping leaders and businesses overcome mental blocks, achieve meaningful change, and align their personal and professional goals. Having relocated to Costa Rica and experienced her own personal transformation, Natalie integrates life coaching and mindset work into her practice, enabling clients to achieve success with balance and intention.

Featured Resources 

• Natalie Bergsma on LinkedIn
• Natalie Bergsma on Twitter
• BeyondFA on LinkedIn
• BeyondFA.com

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Enjoyed This? You’ll Also Love:  

• How to Develop and Infuse Generosity Into Your Company Culture 
• Six People You Need In Your Life To Develop Your Career
• How to Align Your Values With Your Career and Service Model

‍

Full Audio Transcript:

00:00:00 - 00:08:15

Lauren Hong

Natalie, thanks for joining us today. Glad to have you here.

‍

00:08:18 - 00:12:13

Natalie Bergsma

Thanks for having me, Lauren. And I really, really appreciate the opportunity. This is going to be fun.

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00:12:15 - 00:32:28

Lauren Hong

Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I know you've got just so much great experience working with advisors. And you've got a great story to tell too, with just how you’ve been able to coach, manage, and then also just lead your own life. You're kind of a representation of what you do for your clients as well.

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00:32:28 - 00:48:17

Lauren Hong

So, I'll let you get into it. I want to hand it over to you to share a little bit more about your background, how you got into the work you're doing, and why specifically you've happened to work with a number of advisors. So I'll hand it over to you.

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00:48:20 - 01:09:03

Natalie Bergsma

Thanks. I appreciate that. It's a pretty long story actually. I started in this industry 20 years ago. lt was a better paying job to work at a consulting firm than it was to work at the college. So I sort of fell into the opportunity. Was it my intended career path?

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01:09:03 - 01:40:27

Natalie Bergsma

I actually left to pursue my PhD in physical chemistry. And it was one of those moments in life where you've picked this path and you like nothing about it, and you're not finding joy and all the things that come with sort of leading your best life. And I had a therapist at the time and we had talked about why I was doing that, and it turns out it was just to fulfill someone else's desires for me.

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01:40:27 - 02:11:03

Natalie Bergsma

And so I left with my master’s instead of my PhD and actually went back to working in financial services and working for one of the top consulting firms in our industry. And we got bought by AssetMark at the time. So we sort of started this work learning from the ground up, really helping firms implement best practices and execute change to running a scale group coaching program to practice management training.

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02:11:05 - 02:32:06

Natalie Bergsma

Back then, we helped start some of the industry-leading research you guys see around the day. So as you know all of that, I'm a learner. I love learning and learning new things. I really never stop. But I hit another really pivotal point in my career. And my husband really wasn't happy in his firm, in his role.

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02:32:06 - 03:04:03

Natalie Bergsma

And he was ready to take a break. I had two kids; I think at the time they were three and six months old, and this amazing opportunity to move to Costa Rica presented itself. And so we had one of those aha moments again where we went, all right, what direction are we going? And really wanted to give our kids an opportunity to experience a different life, a different culture, a different way of being than what we had grown up with.

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03:04:03 - 03:09:07

Natalie Bergsma

And it's hard to say no to moving to Costa Rica, you know.

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03:09:10 - 03:13:00

Lauren Hong

Yeah. A great opportunity to dive in and experience something completely new.

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03:13:00 - 03:35:23

Natalie Bergsma

Yeah. But part of what I learned in that process when I had my first son, I actually had postpartum anxiety. For the first time, I really connected that some of my anxiety was based on being performance driven, right? Your worth and your value is how well you do or how much you succeed.

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03:35:25 - 03:55:29

Natalie Bergsma

And when we moved to Costa Rica, loved the work I was doing when I loved the team. In fact, it's Limitless Advisor Coaching, actually. So coaching with them as well as running my own practice. But I brought me with me. This is what happened. And people always ask like, oh my God, didn't you love Costa Rica?

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03:55:29 - 04:32:27

Natalie Bergsma

And I think, no, because I wasn't living that life there; I hadn't yet made that shift from my worth and my value being performance driven to really being internal and shifting my mindset. And you know, limitless straight mindset is a big portion of their program. But also I worked with a life coach at that time and she really helped me see how my way of thinking and being was really impacting those things. When I was 26 and we were bought by AssetMark, I had the opportunity to start a business.

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04:32:29 - 04:55:12

Natalie Bergsma

Then the clients were willing to come with me at the time but I was too afraid. I didn't want to take those risks. And that really stopped me from, I think, doing some amazing things. And I did that work in my 40s and started my own business at the very beginning of COVID when my husband was a stay-at-home dad.

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04:55:12 - 05:28:15

Natalie Bergsma

No other support structure in place. It enabled me to take a risk that I could take when I didn't have any responsibilities, and there was really no concern. So that was a big shift for me. So I actually dove into that mindset, an executive coaching component, and got the credentials around that to be able to bring that into the work I do with advisors because I love helping businesses reach their potential and teams and leaders reach their potential.

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05:28:15 - 05:55:26

Natalie Bergsma

But in all the work I did in consulting, people would just get stuck, right? We would have conversations around changing your fee schedules or hiring or letting go of team members who wouldn't get a good fit, and I just couldn't get them past something. And what that really boiled down to was they weren't in the right mindset or the frame of mind to make those kinds of decisions.

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05:55:26 - 06:21:05

Natalie Bergsma

So I decided to bring that into the work I do and merge those two practices together. And that's really what we do today. We've been doing that for a while now, really helping lifestyle solo advisors and the coaching side, leading and running their businesses and making shifts and implementing all the changes but doing the work that goes with being able to make those changes on the personal side.

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06:21:05 - 06:47:22

Natalie Bergsma

And then for the ensemble, larger firms, we come in and do that hands-on work with you. But I'm also still working with leaders around change management and people and how they're showing up as a leader. To do that. And we really focus on working with a different kind of firm, for a purpose-based firm, we kind of help firms grow with purpose and intention.

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06:47:22 - 07:16:21

Natalie Bergsma

So a lot of the work we do, you're already successful. I was already successful. But I was overwhelmed and I was stressed and I had to make changes to have the success and feel really good about it and have all the other things I wanted in my life. And so that's kind of what brought me into it, to your point, I had to go through that experience, and I want to be able to bring that to other people.

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07:16:24 - 07:41:29

Lauren Hong

And I love that. Your story also just has these very raw and real moments of transparency that allowed you to be able to have clarity around those shifts, and that you're comfortable being able to share that because I think sometimes that's not always the case, right? Of it's the reality, right? Everyone here, the sort of peaks of what you see on social media or the success stories but so much of the real is not what you see above the water.

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07:41:29 - 08:05:18

Lauren Hong

So I appreciate that insight in the narrative to where you are. So how did you go about building up your advisor base? Did you tap into those relationships you had? And then, I guess I sort of question A, how did you build that up? And then question B, you talked about merging this kind of mindset model meets consulting.

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08:05:18 - 08:14:10

Lauren Hong

And I’d love to hear how you came up with that. So maybe advisor and then kind of what was that offering that brought them in that was different.

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08:14:13 - 08:37:22

Natalie Bergsma

It was different. Yeah. You really just tapped into existing networks, as I mentioned. Limitless and I are still very connected. So we kind of made the decision that I really wanted to work one-on-one with clients, have that individual impact and shift people's lives in a very direct way. And so we sort of split ways.

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08:37:22 - 09:01:28

Natalie Bergsma

And I had some clients coming with me who are still part of the Limitless program. So I was really lucky because I think all throughout my career I've been really supported. I've had a really great support network. I've had really great leaders. So it's probably why I'm one of the things that I'm maybe a little pushy about when it comes to this industry is you have to be a great leader because it makes such a huge difference, right?

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09:01:28 - 09:22:24

Natalie Bergsma

I've seen other women in this industry just struggle because of the types of firms they were in and the kinds of leaders they were under and the limiting factors that go with that. And I was like, I didn't really get that experience, maybe a little ageism along the way. I started really young. I finally look like a grown up now.

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09:22:26 - 09:46:16

Natalie Bergsma

But then, like advisory firms, one client begets another client. And you just try to impact people's lives and help them with their businesses. And that creates the momentum you need to continue to grow and develop. And then consistency in marketing is super key as you obviously know.

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09:46:16 - 09:49:28

Natalie Bergsma

So it's really about getting up every day and doing the work.

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09:50:00 - 10:08:27

Lauren Hong

Doing good work. I hear you. So what kind of got you at the fork in the road to see this consulting meets mindset opportunity? And how have you positioned that to really help people do good work and help to be able to make those shifts, as you alluded to earlier?

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10:08:29 - 10:37:27

Natalie Bergsma

Part of it was introduced me through the work I did at other firms and through having honestly, over the years, my own therapists, my own coaches, really seeing how that impacted my own life and my ability to get past these stops I had for years in terms of executing and a couple of clients along the way early in my career.

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10:38:00 - 11:13

Natalie Bergsma

We had some really tough decision points for them. I had a client who was going through a divorce and I was coaching them. And that conversation was, well, I have to work on the business. And I’m like, no, you don't have to work; it's good. Let it run. You have to take care of yourself. And so I see it so much in our industry.

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11:13 - 11:04:18

Natalie Bergsma

It's so driven by numbers and by AUM. And how big you are.

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11:04:20 - 11:07:21

Lauren Hong

How many employees do you have? And yeah, all the milestones.

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11:07:22 - 11:33:15

Natalie Bergsma

You know, drive, drive, drive, drive, go, go, go. Show performance oriented. But you see so many successful people sort of struggling and under water. They look great on the outside but they're struggling on the inside with their teams, with their systems, with how they feel. You know, for almost 80% of the advisors I talk to, imposter syndrome is a huge deal for them.

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11:33:15 - 12:02:14

Natalie Bergsma

So really being able to make the shifts in the business. The way I talk about it, it's really growth with intention. Growth for the sake of growth just creates more stress and creates more overwhelm. But if you look at your business, your vision and where you're going and getting your team on board and what you should focus on and why should focus on your energy.

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12:02:16 - 12:19:01

Natalie Bergsma

If you can bring all of that together, then you can do it and you can enjoy the ride along the way. And I think that's what so many business owners are looking for right now. I want to have that success but I don't want it at the cost of everything else in my life.

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12:19:04 - 12:43:13

Lauren Hong

Some of my favorite conversations with firms are just getting to know them or things like we've grown into a very intentional club. And this is why we, our business, is healthy and we feel good about it or what have you. It's the firms that say we're at this size, maybe they've got a dozen employees and we want to grow because fill in the blank, right?

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12:43:13 - 13:08:07

Lauren Hong

There's that intentionality behind it. And that goes back to serving clients and just having that clarity. That in itself is a gift. So I appreciate what you're saying. So tell me more. You talked with a lot of leaders, right? And I feel like sometimes we're always looking for these hacks, like, okay, if I'm going to grow, do I need to put together this whole plan? Is there a blueprint for a strategic plan or what things should I be thinking about?

‍

13:08:07 - 13:26:02

Lauren Hong

Or what books should I be reading or systems to tap into? And I'd love to hear from you about how you approach working with leaders. And if there's more of a, I'll call it a blueprint or a playbook, or if it's more kind of uncovering things through a mindset perspective.

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13:26:04 - 13:50:12

Natalie Bergsma

So yeah, we call them best practices, right? That's what you're saying. Just give me the best practices, tell me what to do and what order to do it. In some ways that does work. But I think in working with a lot of firms, what I've noticed is you have to adapt it, sort of like in the work we do, we always customize best practices.

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13:50:12 - 14:10:03

Natalie Bergsma

You are not the same person as this leader or this firm over here. You don't have the same team. You rarely have the same kind of client base. So you're just trying to take someone's models and fit it onto your practice. And then for some reason, it's not working and you can't quite figure out why it's not working.

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14:10:03 - 14:34:12

Natalie Bergsma

And it's hey, we actually need to to adapt that. So best practices are great. They're a really good guideline to work with. But quick fixes don't really work, right? That miracle solution solvable isn't there. You have to do the work. And so you know in the work we do with firms, we customize it.

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14:34:12 - 14:58:14

Natalie Bergsma

So where is it you want to go and what are your goals? Or if you want to be a lifestyle solo advisor that looks different than if you're a solo advisor or trying to grow into an ensemble business. And if you're a lifestyle ensemble that wants to stay at a certain size, let's say 10 people or under, the strategic decisions you make are different than if you want to become an enterprise.

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14:58:16 - 15:27:00

Natalie Bergsma

So you always have to look at those things. And I think we're always looking for the right answer. And there isn't a right answer. You know most of the successful firms I've seen have just made decisions and leaned into those decisions and committed to doing that. And so I think looking for the quick fix, you end up doing a lot of research and not a lot of execution, right?

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15:27:00 - 15:45:00

Natalie Bergsma

You spend a lot of time in theory and not a lot of time in doing. We talked about podcasting and your time management is a really good example of that. When you think of the thing we want the quick fix for, it's so I need to be able to better manage my time.

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15:45:03 - 15:56:21

Natalie Bergsma

And this is a universal challenge of leaders, of business owners. So of everyone. And there are a hundred time management tools. I could give you just a stack of books this big.

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15:56:24 - 15:59:08

Lauren Hong

I know; it's so true.

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15:59:11 - 16:03:20

Natalie Bergsma

But Lauren, how many time management techniques have you used?

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16:03:22 - 16:11:04

Lauren Hong

Oh, I don't even know. I honestly test them and then I kind of throw them out or I just adjust them. And there's a few that stuck.

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16:11:06 - 16:34:16

Natalie Bergsma

Yeah. So you know that's part of that. You have to get it to work for you. But what we're talking about is these are the tools and techniques we need. But if we don't have the right thinking in place, they just don't work really well. And here’s a really good example. I have a client — we're working on her time management — and we had a conversation.

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16:34:16 - 17:05:10

Natalie Bergsma

She was just beating herself up. She said to me, Natalie, I don't understand why I can't do something so simple. Why can't I just follow the model? And that was creating so much stress and anxiety and overwhelm that it made it even harder to follow the model. And sometimes we think, why can't we just do these simple things, whether it's time management or if you change, it's because it's more complicated than that.

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17:05:13 - 17:28:09

Natalie Bergsma

If you think of time management, you've got our culture of distraction. Do you have the right team in place to be able to delegate? Do you have the right systems and tools to create efficiency? And then how do you think about time? How do you relate to time? And for most of us, we're a victim to time.

‍

17:28:11 - 17:52:07

Natalie Bergsma

We don't have any control over it. We have time scarcity. So our mindset around being able to have enough time to even make changes in the business, is nine times out of 10, what's going to get in our way for improving our time management techniques, which then improve our ability to work on the business and do these other things.

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17:52:07 - 18:11:02

Natalie Bergsma

So you can kind of take that concept and really apply it to any change or pattern or behavior you're trying to shift as a business or as a leader. And that takes time. And I had a quick conversation — I just want a two-day bootcamp; just fix me in two days.

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18:11:05 - 18:14:18

Natalie Bergsma

No, time management takes three to six months for you to see some patterns, right?.

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18:14:18 - 18:38:12

Lauren Hong

Those patterns of behavior. I hear you. So speaking of time, to be mindful of time, I want to make sure I get to one other question I've got for you. I know you've worked with leaders and teams. I know you've gone a little bit into the data of what makes great leaders maybe taps into what makes great teams.

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18:38:12 - 18:52:21

Lauren Hong

I’d love to hear a little bit about that kind of data you've been able to pull together and then also if you just have first-hand experiences and working with leaders, any insights folks would have as far as best practices go.

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18:52:21 - 19:21:26

Natalie Bergsma

So yeah, we did a study last year and instead of asking advisors how they felt about things, we actually asked their teams, right? We asked the boots on the ground people about how they felt about leadership. And two kinds of really interesting things came out of it. One was what the teams thought leaders most valued in terms of their leadership was very different from what teams valued.

‍

19:21:26 - 19:37:25

Natalie Bergsma

So the top three traits in leaders for teams were communication, adaptability, and honesty and transparency. And when describing from their leader’s perspective the number one thing was expertise.

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19:37:27 - 19:40:21

Lauren Hong

Interesting.

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19:43:09 - 19:45:08

Lauren Hong

There was no match, no direct match.

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19:45:08 - 20:05:24

Natalie Bergsma

Well, communication was up on the list. So I think we all know to be a good leader you have to be a good communicator. But what I see with a lot of leaders who are trying to grow their businesses is they have trouble getting out of their own way, right? They struggle to delegate or build teams.

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20:05:27 - 20:30:00

Natalie Bergsma

They become the bottleneck in the business. And so that becomes a really big challenge when you're trying to grow an organization. And it's interesting, about 15 years ago when we asked team members in our client relationships, hey, what's the struggle? They said we don't know what the vision is. We don't know where we're going or that's shifted.

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20:30:02 - 20:43:20

Natalie Bergsma

Now they know where they're going. They just don't know how it applies to them. So leaders are still missing that gap. You can point the firm in a direction but you've got to get everyone on board and bring them with you.

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20:43:22 - 21:09:05

Lauren Hong

I hear you. I've been fortunate, much like you, to be plugged into the C-suite and see behind the scenes of a lot of different companies. And one company we worked with for a number of years, one of my favorite transparency components they've added to their business is they have what they call their monthly State of the Union, and it's just literally updating teams about where they're going, where the business is headed.

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21:09:08 - 21:25:00

Lauren Hong

Major project initiatives that are going on and opportunities to celebrate others and good work. And so I love that component. We've applied it to us as well. And it's funny. We do it. I'm sure a lot of firms are familiar with Net Promoter Score, as I'm sure you're familiar as well. There's a Net Promoter Score for employees.

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21:25:00 - 21:40:05

Lauren Hong

And that's one of the things that at least on our team, a lot of people talk about; they love that transparency and I think really appreciate being a part of that business journey along the way. So that's interesting to hear that. I guess from my personal experiences, it kind of aligns with some of the data and research you did.

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21:42:06 - 21:50:03

Natalie Bergsma

Yeah, we definitely see it in firms, right? Teams don't want to come to work just to do a job anymore, right? They want to be a part of something bigger.

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21:50:06 - 22:05

Lauren Hong

Yep. That's right. And I hear you, well, this was so fun. Any other final thoughts or things you want to make sure to share?

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22:07 - 22:33:01

Natalie Bergsma

I think one of the key components of — you just mentioned it — doing that State of the Union address and what comes next, we talked a little bit about the leader bottleneck but it's also the business bottleneck. So having a clear plan in place for what we're working on and who's responsible and really having a strategic planning process to make sure you're working on the things that are going to create the growth you want in the order you want it.

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22:33:01 - 22:57:04

Natalie Bergsma

And that's part of the work we do is really helping firms identify what those things are and then put them in the right order and then help them champion their teams to execute and move forward on them. So it's a big component of getting all the pieces to line up, right? The strategy, the teams, the mindset, the systems, really driving everything in one direction.

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22:57:04 - 23:06:00

Natalie Bergsma

That’s the way firms are seeing that intentional and purpose-oriented growth and creating meaning in their businesses and their lives.

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23:06:03 - 23:24:03

Lauren Hong

That's great. And then it sounds like you also support the change management component as well. So not just the strategy of putting together the big picture. And then supporting those teams as they actually implement that action. Are you kind of more or less tapping back into the consulting as the project moves forward?

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23:24:06 - 24:03

Natalie Bergsma

Yeah, depending on how you engage with us. We have done engagements where we lead and coach and we have done engagements where we become a strategic member of the team, sort of a fractional COO, helping design that strategy and then helping implement and build it out, whether that's a service model or a fee schedule or advisor career paths and milestones — really helping execute that and then implement it. So our engagements are a little bit longer term because we don't really believe in, hey, let me build you something and then hand it to you. 

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24:09 - 24:17:01

Lauren Hong

Yeah I hear you. It's getting past that stuck point. Kind of like you were sharing earlier, being able to help actually get some traction as well. Great. Thank you so much for your time. Where can folks learn more? What's a good website or email?

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24:17:06 - 24:24:06

Natalie Bergsma

You can visit us at beyondfa.com or email connect at beyondfa.com. And we're happy to chat.

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24:24:09 - 24:27:20

Lauren Hong

Wonderful. Thank you again for your time exploring.

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24:27:23 - 24:29:01

Natalie Bergsma

Appreciate it.

‍

‍

We talked with Mary about:

• Embracing the “blue ocean mentality” instead of competing 
• How to elevate your voice to make an impact in the thought leadership space
• The consistent effort and ongoing learning it takes to be a thought leader

About Mary Carlson:

Mary Carlson is a financial expert with a passion for integrating financial education and human behavior. After earning a financial planning degree from Texas Tech University, she worked as a lobbyist for the Financial Planning Association, focusing on retirement, taxes, and financial education. Her career later took her to the Pentagon, where she taught military personnel about budgeting, savings, and retirement planning. While earning her doctorate in financial therapy, Mary researched the financial behaviors of soldiers, deepening her understanding of the emotional aspects of money. She also spent three years at the CIA providing financial counseling. Today, she runs her own consulting business, Financial Behavior Keynote Group, using her unique blend of financial knowledge and behavioral insights to help others.

Featured Resources 

• Dr. Mary Carlson on LinkedIn 
• Financial Behavior Keynote Group on LinkedIn
• Financial Behavior Keynote Group on YouTube
• Financial Behavior Keynote Group website 
• Kitces.com

Enjoyed This? You’ll Also Love: 

• Telling Finance- and Caused-Based Stories through Filmmaking with Robin Hauser
• Making Noise to Tackle the Financial Education Problem 
• Navigating and Optimizing the Strengths of Your Team with Gretchen Pisano

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Full Audio Transcript:

00:00:00 - 00:06:24

Lauren Hong

Mary, thank you for joining us today.

‍

00:06:26 - 00:08:29

Mary Carlson

Yeah. It's so great to be here. Thanks, Lauren.

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00:09:01 - 00:33:04

Lauren Hong

Oh my gosh. Yes, I had the best time checking out your website. You work with so many amazing folks. Not to mention your speaking credentials and how deeply you know the advisory community and the work that's going on there. You've done such a great job of positioning yourself, and I am really looking forward to hearing from you today, not just about how you got here in your journey and the day-to-day work you do.

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00:33:07 - 00:51:04

Lauren Hong

But I know we're going to get into a little bit more about how you even get going with identifying a topic and speaking and really building a thought leadership platform. So we have a lot to cover and a short period of time. Over to you. How did you get into this world?

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00:51:04 -00:54:04

Lauren Hong

And tell us a little bit more about your business.

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00:54:07 - 01:12:05

Mary Carlson

Sure. I thank you so much, Lauren. And yeah, I feel lucky every day to be able to work with some of the most incredible minds in the industry, some of the most developing thought leadership I've ever experienced. So it has been really fun. But let me take you back really quick and give you a quick backstory of where I came from.

‍

01:12:05 - 01:33:00

Mary Carlson

So I came out of Texas Tech's financial planning program. I love financial planning. It just makes me so excited to know these things I feel like everybody in the world needs to know. And so my little 25-year-old self, and I have a degree under my belt and thought, I'm going to go to Washington, D.C. and knock on the halls of Congress and teach the world financial education.

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01:33:00 - 01:55:20

Mary Carlson

So that's what I did. I came out to D.C. Long story short, I ended up at FPA as a lobbyist and did that. I had a portfolio of retirement, taxes, and then financial education. We met in the Treasury's Gold Room and I had some really cool experiences with senators and representatives and in the White House a few times, some really cool, interesting things.

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01:55:23 - 02:12:27

Mary Carlson

And I just kept being a fan. Well, long story short, I ended up going into wealth management for a short period and never found my footing. I just never felt like it was a total fit after I had these big dreams. I'm a big dreamer and a big idealist. And so of course, I went to the Pentagon instead.

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02:12:29 - 02:42:23

Mary Carlson

That's the next logical bit of it. I had a great experience traveling all over the world teaching members of the military about financial education principles and everything from budget and savings to their specific retirement plan to how very specific military benefits and services work. And that was really fun. So that's where I got into this idea of speaking and really latched on and thought, I really like this.

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02:42:26 - 03:13:16

Mary Carlson

Fast-forward, I ended up going to Fort Riley, Kansas, which is right next to Manhattan, Kansas, where Kansas State is, and worked on my Ph.D. simultaneously while also working on the military compound there. And I worked with families of the fallen. And so specifically, what they would get, almost half a million death benefit and gratuity, after their loved one died, which really came with a lot of emotion attached.

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03:13:16 - 03:35:10

Mary Carlson

That felt like blood money. I'd much rather have my loved one here. But in this program and the Ph.D. program I was in, we were in financial therapy. We're talking about financial behavior. And that's where my real interest in this idea of money is not just money, right? Money is so tied to emotion and behavior and psychology.

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03:35:17 - 04:02:02

Mary Carlson

And I was seeing it firsthand play out in a life and death scenario. The quickest we ever saw half a million spent was three months. And there's so much guilt and shame and anger and all those intangible feelings that came along with that. And so I ended up writing my dissertation on the financial behaviors of soldiers before and after deployment and really fleshed out what that looked like.

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04:02:04 - 04:35:14

Mary Carlson

And we were actually right there. And so we were able to get over 800 soldiers before and after deployment. And mind you, this was a time when they were going to war zones four or five, six times, back to back to back. It was putting a lot of stress and strain on these families. So that really kind of was my entrance into this whole idea of money's not just about learning what to do and what not to do but it's that whole integration of the human side of money and what makes us us. I went back to Washington, D.C. and worked for the accounting associations.

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04:35:14 - 05:22

Mary Carlson

I've worked for federal. I've been on the Hill, worked at the federal and local level as well and then I got married, started having kids and decided — You know what I wanted? I've always wanted to own my own business. So I started a consulting business and ended up at the CIA and spent three years at the Central Intelligence Agency doing financial counseling for members of the CIA.

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05:22 - 05:27:04

Mary Carlson

And so it was really, really interesting to learn. They are very different from my military experience. Yeah, a population but also some different experiences and the coolest part of that experience was I was embedded in an EAP or employee assistance program. So they work with therapists. So I was working right next to marriage and family therapists, counselors, psychologists, and social workers who could help with addiction.

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05:27:07 - 06:04:07

Mary Carlson

And it was a really cool experience for those three years to be able to say we can come at issues with a holistic approach, right? So if you have a gambler addicted to alcohol, you're not just sending him to me to fix the financial side of it but you're working with the social worker who works with the marriage and family therapist who works with me, and there was a lot of back and forth and integrated work, and that's where I saw the beauty of all these different service providers come together and solidify. So fast-forward, what came along after that experience was over.

‍

06:04:07 - 06:23:24

Mary Carlson

I still teach at a couple of universities and have taught for University of Georgia for several years now but really wanted to do even more. And that was when three years ago, I came together and said, hey, there were three other academics with me; why don't we do more speaking, consulting together?

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06:24:01 - 06:43:04

Mary Carlson

And so hence the idea of Financial Behavior Keynote was born. We have these backgrounds and experiences in this group but really honing in on behavior. And I would say that's what sets us apart from any other group out there. It's a very niche group. It's especially niche in the speaking arena, right?

‍

06:43:06 - 06:44:04

Lauren Hong

It is.

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06:44:09 - 07:21:07

Mary Carlson

We really want financial behavior but we also have this component. Our tagline is “Where education meets experiential learning.” And so part of learning that you have to have is the research side, right? You want that research side, that empirical research to back up what we're doing in practice. And so that's a lot of what we're trying to do is bring practice and academia together and facilitate more conversations and have more conversations and make the research we do know about more understandable to be able to be practically implemented.

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07:21:07 - 07:29:06

Mary Carlson

And so that's what I get up for every day now. That's what excites me. But that's kind of the background and how I got into it and where I came from.

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07:29:06 - 07:48:26

Lauren Hong

So, oh my gosh, it personally speaks to me so much. I spent time in D.C. — my husband's navy. So it's just hearing you talk about your journey and of course, I work in the financial services space. There's so many connections, connecting the dots in so many ways.

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07:48:26 - 08:08:24

Lauren Hong

So let's dig a little bit deeper. I feel like we need to have a whole conversation about these things that impact more or unpack them more. But let's dig specifically a little bit deeper for you're working with people and correct me if I'm wrong, who have really established their focus, right?

‍

08:08:24 - 08:19:19

Lauren Hong

And in this work you're then helping them, placing them for various speaking opportunities. Tell us a little bit more about that component of the business.

‍

08:19:21 - 08:47:24

Mary Carlson

Sure. So really when it came together, the four of us were like, hey, we want to do more of this. The whole idea behind it is to leverage each other's social networking ability, right? Because I'm a big believer in a blue ocean mentality. I think too often we sit in what I call lobsters in a bucket where we kind of tear each other down or little circles and fight over some little piddly thing and sort of look out and say, there is enough.

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08:48:01 - 09:19:12

Mary Carlson

There is enough work. There are enough people, there's enough space. And your voice needs to be heard, who you are. And so regardless of someone else speaking on your topic or doing what you do instead of fighting about it, let's garner together. Yeah, harness those assets to move forward. And so that's where that idea came from. And as we started to band together, what we started to find is some incredible speakers, Paul Richards, Sarah Newcomb, some really incredible people came and said we want to be a part of this.

‍

09:19:12 - 09:39:18

Mary Carlson

We said, well by all means, come, let's make it happen. Why not? So it quickly grew. We started last year with four. We ended last year with 32. And it grew so quickly that at one point last fall I was like, time out, I don't know what I'm doing.

‍

09:39:18 - 10:05:16

Mary Carlson

We've got to slow down because typically what happens in a speaker's arrangement or a setting is a speaker's bureau is really not interested in you until you're charging a minimum $10, $20,000 or more. And so if you think of a lot of speakers' bureaus, you're looking at the creme de la creme. You're looking at people who have studied this, who have done it, and who have spoken a lot like in houses of the world, right?

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10:05:16 - 10:25:21

Mary Carlson

Or if you go to the Washington Speaker's Bureau, that's like the who's who of every political act, president, or director or some sort. But the problem with those is what about those who have been charging nothing and they just want to improve, or those who are maybe charging a thousand bucks? No speaker bureau is interested in taking on someone charging 1,000 bucks.

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10:25:21 - 10:50:24

Mary Carlson

So I just felt like I was sitting in a speaker course in January, and I looked around and there were 60 people in this room, and I thought, all of them are great. There was an FBI hostage negotiator. There was a cartoonist. There was one other financial services person. I thought, oh, yeah, I can go to this FBI hostage negotiator and get help with my speech but he's not going to know the ins and outs of this topic.

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10:50:24 - 11:11:06

Mary Carlson

I'm going to have to spend more time explaining the topic than I am the stuff. And so the idea hit me of we need community. And that kind of added to that blue ocean mentality. Instead of being an elitist group that's like, well, unless you charge X amount, right, it becomes, hey, are you interested in this topic?

‍

11:11:06 - 11:30:19

Mary Carlson

Do you want to learn more? And are you willing to put forth the work it requires to go? And so that was born this year. The idea of a thought leadership community. And so that's what we have and that's what we grow. And really we have a lot of really different individuals. Some want to be speakers, some don't.

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11:30:21 - 11:54:22

Mary Carlson

Some want to just come and learn, some want to be better communicating with their clients. Some want to teach, create online courses, or teach in an online type format. We even have writers in the group of people who want to be better bloggers or podcasters. We do have a few of those. So at one point we had called it content creators, and I wanted to get away from that.

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11:54:22 - 12:14:19

Mary Carlson

And here's why I think it's in the DNA trend. Experts are everywhere, right? You just get a YouTube channel and call yourself an expert and suddenly you're an expert. The other thing is, there's so many influencers out there it's hard to tell an influencer to create content, right? And that's not what we're in the business of.

‍

12:14:21 - 12:51:04

Mary Carlson

We're in the business of thought leadership. And I think the important takeaway from this is it's not just blowing smoke up and saying, hey, this is something I read about one time but this is rich, developed, evidence based content we can implement. And so that's what this group has become, a really rich, diverse group that has various forms of communication — written, verbal, etc. — that is coming together and saying, hey, we created content before, how did that work?

‍

12:51:04 - 13:13:04

Mary Carlson

How did you have the lifespan of it? What did this look like? And what I find to be the most beneficial, and those in the group do as well, is it's not learning. There's no teacher, right? I'm not the Amy Dani that has all the answers but instead it's us learning from each other. It's that blue ocean of everyone has something to give and everyone has something to learn.

‍

13:13:04 - 13:23:18

Mary Carlson

And as we learn and grow together, we become stronger together than we are separate. And that's what that really is, that community and thought leadership.

‍

13:23:20 - 13:45:05

Lauren Hong

Oh my goodness. So I'm sure there's folks who are listening and thinking, I want to be in that thought leadership space or I'm being told I should be in that thought leadership space or they’re sort of pulled toward it. They feel a tug for that, right? To be able to better educate prospects and clients and just to really position themselves, especially if they really defined a target.

‍

13:45:11 - 13:56:20

Lauren Hong

Where do you recommend people even start with this? If, like you said, you can be a YouTuber, you could do a blog, you could do so many things, speaking, where should folks start?

‍

13:56:22 - 14:17:13

Mary Carlson

Yeah, that's a great question. I would say first off, start with where you feel most comfortable. There's so many who are teaching great things on video or how-to bloggers will take a course on it. I don't care if you take a public speaking 101 from your local university, get a little interest and get your feet wet, try something new out.

‍

14:17:13 - 14:45:28

Mary Carlson

It's expanding those horizons. I'm a lifelong learner, and I find many of those in the group are just constantly learning. Some are far in their career and almost ready to retire but they want to continue teaching. And so that's what's cool about it. Now what we do inside the community is help people take them from where they're at and add a little more value. Bring everything you have is essentially what I say and see if we can't add to it because of that collective wisdom together.

‍

14:46:03 - 15:02:25

Mary Carlson

And so by all means, we want you. If you're a financial planner and just want better communication skills and how to communicate maybe better through your newsletter or better on video, we've got that community now. We don't teach video one-on-one like some others do, but we will refer you to those groups.

‍

15:02:25 - 15:29:19

Mary Carlson

We also offer discounts because we have that ability to offer the services we need. So we're not speaker coaches, we don't do speaker training ourselves but we have the ability to collectively come together and say, yeah, there's three individuals to take your pick, and here's a discounted rate for that. So we have some cool opportunities inside the community just because we've come and banded together and said, let's see what we can build together.

‍

15:29:22 - 15:45:18

Lauren Hong

Yeah, I know whenever we're talking with folks, sometimes I think it's just like, what's the most natural? If you don't like writing and you feel like you're like, where do we even start? Then maybe you explore something else. But if you've got that tug and that pull to be able to lean into it, you’ve got to listen to that, right?

‍

15:45:18 - 16:03:05

Lauren Hong

When we talk about thought leaders, you can't just do one blog post and then all of a sudden you're a thought leader or something like that. How do you define thought leadership? When it comes to either frequency or it’s around a subject matter expert, I'd love to hear a little bit more about your thinking.

‍

16:03:07 - 16:05:23

Lauren Hong

And the group's thinking around thought leadership.

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16:05:25 - 16:31:00

Mary Carlson

Absolutely. So we purposely call it a thought leadership group because we know what we thought. Leaders are created over time. It's a lot of work to get there. And that's not everyone's bailiwick. But I think it's really important to recognize thought leadership as it goes in. And so one of the things we've started to recognize over time and realize is one, let's go back to experts.

‍

16:31:00 - 16:55:14

Mary Carlson

Experts really since the rise of YouTube. It used to look on it like, hey, you've got great certifications, you must be an expert in that field. And we're just seeing it watered down between the influencer world and the ability to get degrees and certifications. And I mean fly by night stuff. So this idea of just being an expert really isn't enough, right?

‍

16:55:14 - 17:11:20

Mary Carlson

And so experts teach you what you should do versus a thought leader is someone who sees the future and breaks it down to envision how you can get to that area.

‍

17:11:22 - 17:14:01

Lauren Hong

Yeah to frame it, but keep going. Yes.

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17:14:04 - 17:34:00

Mary Carlson

Well, whether you think that or not, right? Let's use Bob Veres. Bob Veres has been a thought leader in this business for decades. And so we're not pretending to make everyone a Bob Veres after this. But what we are saying is what gives you particular insight, and how can you maybe be a visionary for your own clients?

‍

17:34:02 - 17:54:18

Mary Carlson

But it can be at a very large level, like a Michael Kitces or a Bob Veres where you're helping tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people. But it could also be how do you better serve those you help every day and that takes skill because it requires good communication skills. 

17:54:21 - 18:19:23

‍

Mary Carlson

Like you, I use those two examples. Bob and Michael are incredible writers. They're incredibly able minds. And so how can maybe you take one skill that's a weak skill for you and strengthen it just little by little? And by adding this component of a helpful community, that helps strengthen that thought leadership. So we're there to create thought leadership in a space we want to see thrive.

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18:19:23 - 18:46:26

Mary Carlson

We want to see variation. We want to see not just variety in how financial advisors look and who they serve but also in how we think and how we do financial planning, right? And we think that comes from a broad scope, from with a lot of different voices and a lot of different input, and yet it will look different in every single person's practice.

‍

18:46:26 - 18:54:25

Mary Carlson

And that's the coolest part, is how you implement it. It's going to be different. And that's okay. That's good. We want that.

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18:54:28 - 19:14:08

Lauren Hong

Love it. I also really appreciate the learning model you have created, and that it's collaborative and you've got that push and pull versus kind of the preaching to. So hats off to you. I'm sure there's pull just from your numerous amounts of speaking and being in the classroom and years of experience there.

‍

19:14:11 - 19:21:06

Lauren Hong

I appreciate that too. Do you guys have a forum? Are you just meeting in person or Zoom or how does that work?

‍

19:21:09 - 19:43:04

Mary Carlson

No. Great question. So we use a circle community. So it's an online platform. It's a community. We do a lot of virtual opportunities as well. And they just have a lot of communication ability. We haven't had an in-person yet. Occasionally, several of us will meet up at a conference. But what we really like is this new age ability to connect people.

‍

19:43:04 - 20:03:24

Mary Carlson

Literally. We have people in this thought leadership who are all over the world. And that's the other cool part about financial behavior is whether you're in England or South Africa or Australia. Yes, behavior is about people. We're going to tax law, right? Tax law is going to be dead in the water, totally different.

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20:03:25 - 20:31:27

Mary Carlson

But yet when you really get into the cycle of money and how people interact, we're human at the base level, whether you're in Asia or whether you're in South America. It's about how people work regardless of language or lack of money or more money, right? So we also don't differentiate on ultra-high-net worth versus emerging, middle market, or low income or whatever, everyone.

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20:31:27 - 20:52:04

Mary Carlson

And that's why I think the power of this group is there are so many different speakers who speak to all and we need more of that. But whoever your target market is is going to look different. And that's good. Because these are important messages that need to get out to the world to change the world.

‍

20:52:04 - 21:03:27

Mary Carlson

That and we believe through a speech or through the written word or through video — that's how you change the world little by little by little. By helping yourself and inspiring people around you.

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21:03:29 - 21:19:19

Lauren Hong

I love that in the force of bringing it together. Oh my goodness, I feel like we could talk for such a long time. This is a fascinating topic. Not to mention, I know you can speak on a number of topics. You have quite an impressive portfolio for a variety of topics you speak on and the group and what have you.

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21:19:19 - 21:28:04

Lauren Hong

So where can folks learn more? Where should we go if we want to learn more about everything we've been chatting about today?

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21:28:07 - 21:47:12

Mary Carlson

I love it. Yeah. Go to keynote Dot financial. So k-e-y-n-o-t-e dot financial. So if you are hosting an event and let me pause right there on this part, this is primarily what we do with clients is help you get a client or get a speaker at your event. So that could be a chapter.

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21:47:14 - 22:12:10

Mary Carlson

That could be a large conference. It could be a small conference. It can even be client events. And so think about wanting to add value to your clients, what do speakers love? Doing these intimate events where clients are touched. Because our speakers can speak not only to B2B but also that B2C side. And so we'd love to work with you on any of those realms.

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22:12:12 - 22:29:23

Mary Carlson

So you can go there, you can see our list of speakers. We constantly are updating topics and ideas. And if you're like, hey, Mary, I don't have a clue, reach out to me, let's have a call and I'll help you find the right fit for your speakers because the ones you're seeing on the website are really the tip of the iceberg.

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22:29:23 - 22:53:11

Mary Carlson

We've got a lot more great minds behind the scene. If you're interested in learning more about this but don't really have an event, go to our education page. And on that education page we offer monthly webinars, and I'm really excited to announce next year we'll be offering longer term workshops. So right now we do webinars and book studies, which are very popular.

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22:53:13 - 23:12:11

Mary Carlson

And we're going to start offering workshops that will be smaller broken down chunks. I'm showing you exactly how to do something and how to implement it rather than just a one-hour webinar takeaway. So be on the lookout for that. And if you're like me, I'm still wanting more, then join our community. We would love to have you.

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23:12:11 - 23:38:18

Mary Carlson

And so that would be our community tab and just jump in there. If you're like, I have no idea where to start, just get on my calendar. And we'd love to talk to you, and see where you're at in your journey. But we're really excited about talking about what we know. It really started out where I began, if I came to Washington, D.C. to change the world, because I feel the information we know inside is so important, it's so valuable, and so many people need this.

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23:38:20 - 24:03:09

Mary Carlson

And so now it's fun to look back 20 years later and say, wow, this is how I believe we are going to change the world, and it's not going to be me by myself. It's going to be a whole ocean of us together saying these are really important and we want to change your life. Whether it's B2B, B2C, or you're helping hundreds or thousands at a time.

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24:03:09 - 24:10:12

Mary Carlson

And so that's the exciting part behind it. So go to our website, check it out, or just jump on my calendar. And I'd love to have a conversation with you.

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24:10:14 - 24:25:26

Lauren Hong

Oh my goodness, Mary, thank you so much. This was such a fun conversation and so many good insights, right? For folks who are looking to get involved, there are a number of ways, or looking to bring a speaker and also just tips. So thank you for sharing your knowledge and also just your passion for the work and what you do for this community.

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24:25:28 - 24:31:24

Mary Carlson

Thanks for having me on, Lauren. It's been great.

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We talked with Catherine Tindall about:

• Why planning, forecasting, and analysis are essential components in building an effective tax strategy
• Key tax considerations for advisors and firms as year-end approaches to help optimize income taxes and future growth
• Why working with a tax professional who understands the advisory space — and knowing the right questions to ask — can help enhance an advisor's CPA relationship, experience, and outcomes

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About Catherine Tindall:

Catherine Tindall, CPA, is the founder and head tax strategist at Dominion Enterprise Services and host of the podcast “Financial Advisors Want to Know.” Specializing in helping RIAs, independent broker-dealers, and other 1099 financial advisors, Catherine goes beyond routine income tax return filing to offer proactive planning that supports growth and expansion. Observing a gap in strategic tax analysis and planning, Catherine takes a client-focused, holistic, and proactive approach to tax strategies — the opposite of legacy CPA firms — to help advisors and firms grow more efficiently and achieve their current and long-term goals.

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Featured Resources 

• Catherine Tindall, CPA on LinkedIn
• Financial Advisors Want to Know Podcast
• Dominion Enterprise Services 
• Financial Advisors Success Podcast with Michael Kitces

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Enjoyed This? You’ll Also Love:

• Business Growth Tips for Accountants, Bookkeepers, and Financial Services Business Owners
• Using a Coach Mindset to Unlock Your Full Leadership Potential
• How to Navigate Financial Services Compliance in 2024

‍

Full Audio Transcript:

00:00:00 - 00:25:18

Lauren Hong

All right. You guys are in for a treat. We have Catherine Tindall joining us today. She is a CPA, specifically working with advisors, and I'm excited for her to share a little bit more about her story. I should say, not just advisors, independent registered advisors, independent broker-dealers, and other 1099 financial advisors. What is your background?

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00:25:18 - 00:29:09

Lauren Hong

How did you pick this space? We'll just dive in.

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00:29:12 - 00:59:13

Catherine Tindall

Yeah. Thanks for having me on, Lauren. So it's funny because I'm a second-generation CPA. My parents had a tax practice growing up. And I always knew I wanted to go into tax once I was in college and had gone through different things. In my firms, specifically when I worked for other CPA firms, I was pretty dissatisfied with the model of service delivery a lot of the time, because they were more interested in getting forms executed than actually looking at what is the client experience in relationships.

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00:59:13 - 01:28:19

Catherine Tindall

And so when I started my firm, five years ago now, a big part of that was wanting to switch the service delivery model. So our firm has always been really focused on planning first and advisory work first, and tax compliance work second. And then over the course of our firm's experience, I realized my favorite clients I was working with were financial advisors because they were growing quickly.

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01:28:19 - 02:06:17

Catherine Tindall

They understood it. They like strategy. They want to understand, and for them, the income tax piece is really significant. It's a really big cash flow hit. It's hard to manage. There's not a lot of ways to shield it and they want to be proactive about it. So we decided to niche into just working for advisors because I realized there wasn't really anybody leading in the space for serving them in this capacity of doing the tax strategy work for their firms as they're growing, and they have really niche and weird issues. Some of them have statutory W-2s, and a lot of them are subject to FINRA rules that regulate how they’re able to recognize income

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02:06:17 - 02:23:05

Catherine Tindall

and where they can record it, and entities they're trying to buy other people's books of business. And there's different ways you can structure that. And there's just a lot of dynamic activity going on, especially to that. They grow really fast so the income tax piece becomes really challenging really quickly.

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02:23:08 - 02:43:09

Lauren Hong

Super interesting. And then I also can appreciate too, that you have that focus on customer experience and so many firms also. That's really important to them. And that high-touch relationship, so you made that a part of your business versus just the transactional component just feels like there's a good fit there. 

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02:43:09 - 03:05:18

Lauren Hong

Okay. So tell us a little bit more like what else is unique and working with these firms? I know you mentioned some other pieces. Are there any unique periods firms should be aware of when they're thinking about that growth phase — they might be a 1099 or just getting started to really expanding and growing their firm? What are some of those key milestones advisors should be thinking about?

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03:05:20 - 03:25:19

Catherine Tindall

Yeah, I think the big one I always take away when I have these conversations with advisors is a lot of the time I ask them, okay, what does five years from now look like for you? And it's so funny, they are so good at doing this for their clients. But I think for themselves it can be really challenging because I ask them are you just trying to build up a lifestyle practice?

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03:25:19 - 03:43:07

Catherine Tindall

Are you trying to build something big? And it really depends on what that initial goal is to then what the trajectory of the firm is going to look like. And then also when we're going to do tax strategy work, what that looks like, because I'll give a very different recommendation to somebody who tells me I read 10X is better than 2X.

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03:43:14 - 04:04:03

Catherine Tindall

And we're going to go to a billion under management. Well, we're going to have a very different strategy of how we're going to get there versus — I had a client prospect come in a couple weeks ago who we're working with going through an assessment, and he wants a lifestyle practice. He's going to eventually get up to a top-line revenue of about a million, million a half, something like that.

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04:04:03 - 04:22:00

Catherine Tindall

And that's where he wants to end up. And he doesn't want to hire a bunch of people. So we're taking a very different approach. So I think for a lot of advisors, there's an initial point where they're kind of in the same pack together, where they're in that building stage, and then some of them will just stay on the lifestyle firm side, and then others will be I want to grow.

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04:22:00 - 04:41:02

Catherine Tindall

I want to build an empire under me. For that first threshold they're together in the same pack. The biggest initial question is usually entity structure, because a lot of them will be going from maybe they were somewhere else where they were a W-2 advisor, and then now they're okay, I can bring my book with me.

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04:41:02 - 04:57:07

Catherine Tindall

Hopefully you can bring some of your book with you. And then it turns into, okay, when do I get to the point where doing something like an S Corporation makes sense? Or if I'm really going to have an aggressive M&A strategy, do I need to have a more complex entity structure? Am I going to have junior advisors under me?

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04:57:07 - 05:05:04

Catherine Tindall

Am I going to have partners? How am I actually going to go through the growth phase and then getting your entity structure to reflect that so you can grow into it? 

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05:05:05 - 05:22:05

Lauren Hong

Super interesting. That makes sense logically just for how businesses grow. But I think for the advisory community, if it's an LLC or like you said an S Corp or however the cards fall, it would probably be much different strategically depending on the goals. So that makes a lot of sense.

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05:22:05 - 05:41:07

Lauren Hong

So tell me a little bit more — shedding the light on so many different firms. And I assume that's one of the reasons people are coming to you. You've kind of seen the behind the scenes. How much are you using that to sort of guide decision-making or is it just super unique for each firm and where they're at?

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05:41:09 - 06:02:07

Catherine Tindall

Oh, it's really dependent on their particular situation. But it's also industry things. It's really funny the things I learn in certain cases, because we're so specific in the niche we work with, we get to use the same material in all the client relationships. And so I was having a conversation with somebody earlier and they were struggling with something.

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06:02:07 - 06:18:04

Catherine Tindall

And I said, oh, well, this other client we had used this vendor for this and had a really good experience — do you want an introduction? And it's a lot of that kind of a thing. Or we had a client who had the same issue with Northwestern Mutual and the way they were recording income or whatever.

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06:18:10 - 06:32:21

Catherine Tindall

And this is how we were able to structure the entity to make it work for them and also be compliant with the IRS rules. And so just being able to have those experiences of, well, this is what we did in a previous situation and this is how we were able to make it work.

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06:32:26 - 06:56:05

Catherine Tindall

It's kind of similar to yours. We're able to go more quickly through those decisions. But I think with a lot of strategy work, it's so integrated with people's personal lives too. Like in the assessment process. For us, it's really a lot of conversation around really personal things because it all ties into what's going on.

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06:56:07 - 07:14:06

Catherine Tindall

Just the way your tax code is structured, it's really personal. I always joked earlier on in my career, if you were a really creepy person, becoming a tax professional's actually a way to get the most information about people than probably anybody else. Maybe financial advisors get more information.

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07:14:08 - 07:14:18

Lauren Hong

A little bit.

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07:14:18 - 07:36:18

Catherine Tindall

But we know about the medical bills, we know about the kid's tuition. We know where the kids are going to college. We kind of know everything about people. And it's because your income tax touches every part of your life. So it does end up being really unique. But in a lot of ways, especially with the different institutions people are working with — we've gotten used to now, okay, you're with LPL, this is how we're going to be seeing things.

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07:36:21 - 07:41:23

Catherine Tindall

You just get used to some of those nuances and then how to navigate it to make it more tax- efficient. 

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07:41:23 - 07:58:27

Lauren Hong

Super interesting. We feel a similar thing; we've worked with LPL firms before and we're familiar with their compliance processes, so on and so forth. Or you're alluding to that kind of quarterback who can help make those referrals because you've got those interconnections or you've seen other similar examples.

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07:58:27 - 08:19:12

Lauren Hong

So you can help shed the light before someone gets there, to help with that proactive decision- making. So I hear you, I think it's one of the unique things that makes it really valuable. And working with an outsourced partner that really knows your space. So you mentioned earlier you just really enjoyed working with this demographic.

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08:19:15 - 08:34:20

Lauren Hong

Because you ended up working with this demographic, did you just sort of learn along the way and deepen your roots in this industry? How have you learned about all the ins and outs? Because I do feel like this world is very — I mean, you can't just jump into it, right?

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08:34:20 - 08:43:20

Lauren Hong

There's plenty of jargon. And in connection, tell me a little bit about your journey in finding this hub and really kind of learning the ins and outs.

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08:43:22 - 09:10:25

Catherine Tindall

Yeah. I guess for me, I've had advisor clients for a lot of my career. So I’m just used to working with them in that capacity. And then really just diving in, listening to podcasts and just engaging with things, finding thought leaders and listening to them and watching the different kerfuffle that goes on, like the CFP Board advertisement thing that's going on right now.

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09:10:28 - 09:29:27

Catherine Tindall

And it's just one of those things where once you find a niche of people you like, you just kind of get into it. And if you're curious and genuinely, I think for me it comes from a place of the better educated I can be holistically, the better my niche advice, my specific slice of things on the tax side is going to be better advice.

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09:30:02 - 09:53:19

Catherine Tindall

Because what I deal with is kind of the remnant of everything else that's going on in their situation. Like the tax at the end of the year is a reflection of their activity, of what's going on. And so if I don't have a more holistic approach when I'm just talking about this tail of the dog, like in order for me to do a good job on the tail of the dog, I kind of have to understand the whole dog, right?

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09:53:19 - 10:14:21

Catherine Tindall

So that's been my approach with it and the curiosity and running my own podcast and those kinds of things come from that place of me knowing as much as I can about my clients and what they care about and what's important to them besides just the piece I touched, which is the tax advisory, it's just going to make that so much better.

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10:14:24 - 10:33:00

Catherine Tindall

It's so much more robust and having those deeper relationships with them, being in the cockpit with them, trying to advise them. And I see so many tax professionals where they're not genuinely interested in their clients and they're really great at tax but they're not genuinely interested in the client and more of a transaction.

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10:33:02 - 10:51:11

Catherine Tindall

And so it ends up you give bad advice. And so I see different maneuvers that happen. For instance, people being told, hey, you got a big tax bill, why don't you get an SUV? Because then you can get a big write-off. Well, I don't like that advice.

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10:51:11 - 11:11:12

Catherine Tindall

Why don't you invest into a coaching program? Because that's going to produce an ROI. And I know if you can work with this coach, this coach or this coach, this is about what you could expect on an ROI. You'll get a deduction this year but then you'll defer the taxes into the growth in the future years you'll get from doing this versus an SUV, which is just all depreciation.

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11:11:14 - 11:23:02

Catherine Tindall

So it's stuff like that where I think once you really get to know, okay, what's the end game you're really trying to drive toward. It just makes the advice so much better. And I'm sure you've seen the same thing on the marketing side.

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11:23:02 - 11:24:12

Lauren Hong

Like literally, I mean.

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11:24:12 - 11:25:06

Catherine Tindall

Big difference.

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11:25:09 - 11:40:22

Lauren Hong

We see sometimes firms will come to us and they're really hungry for organic and they want it now and they're getting pitches like that or just drinking from a firehose of you pay X number of dollars and ad dollars and this and that, and all of a sudden you're going to have this flood of clients. It just doesn't happen like that.

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11:40:22 - 12:05

Lauren Hong

You're still dealing with humans, lifecycles, trust building. So it's a balance, right? I mean, maybe you could have something like that if you've got a huge base built, and you've got a full funnel, pieces in place but there are absolutely cautionary points on all of it.

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12:07 - 12:20:08

Lauren Hong

Okay. We've got a little bit of time left. So as we look ahead, we're toward the end of the year going into the next year, what should firms be thinking about from the tax side or what are you trying to make sure is on top of folks’ minds as they go into the end of year and beginning of next year?

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12:20:10 - 12:36:02

Catherine Tindall

So I'd say a big one is — and it will be completed by the time this comes out — for advisors who are listening to this and are interested, I have a guide that goes through all the major questions I get from advisors, like should I be an S Corp? Just all the things I'm constantly hearing from people.

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12:36:02 - 12:51:19

Catherine Tindall

I'm putting it into a guide people can get. So if you're interested in that, just send me a DM on LinkedIn and I will send it. I'm not going to put it online on our website or whatever, just send me a DM and I'll send it to you. It's going to be partially like what we use internally in the firm too.

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12:51:22 - 13:22:05

Catherine Tindall

And my user on there is just Catherine Tindall, CPA. You can find me and ping me for that. That's going to be a much more comprehensive answer than what I can give you right now. But so basically, looking into next year, everybody's talking about election stuff and my crystal ball is imperfect. I think a lot of the things people are worried about, we just won't be able to tell until we get farther in in terms of things that are going to be sunsetting from the TCG act like, is the QBI deduction going to go away, all of those kinds of issues?

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13:22:05 - 13:40:26

Catherine Tindall

It's just too hard to tell. Like the fact we don't have a strong sense of who's even going to be in the Oval Office. It's just going to be hard on the tax policy side. What I have been seeing is a number of tax proposals that get pushed out there and sound bites that sound good. 

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13:41:04 - 14:04:04

Catherine Tindall

Are they actually going to turn into tax policy, yes or no? So the things people I think actually should be paying attention to are the parts they can control. A common issue I see with advisory firms is that a lot of them really want to have tax planning work done and they just do not have a CPA partner who has a deep understanding of what their requests are..

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14:04:04 - 14:32:14

Catherine Tindall

I had an advisor this week who had asked his CPA for two years in a row, should I be an S Corporation, and the CPA was like, no, I don't think so. And that was the level of planning that went into that versus when we actually dug into his situation, he had wasted over $100,000 over the course of a couple of years, which was meaningful money for him and his practice size.

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14:36:09 - 14:37:21

Lauren Hong

Regardless of practice size.

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14:37:23 - 14:55:27

Catherine Tindall

Especially when it's just waste. It's tax waste. Absolutely. He was like, well I asked the CPA; is this malpractice? And I asked if he actually did a real engagement for you or did he just think it was a casual conversation, not realizing that actually we should do some analysis here.

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14:55:27 - 15:24:14

Catherine Tindall

Like let me run some projections, let me run some numbers. Let's do a reasonable comp study and see, because that's one of the core issues with corporations is you have the owners have to pay themselves a reasonable compensation. Let's do some math. Like let's see what it would actually be. And so I think for a lot of advisors, that's something you can control — if you haven't had tax planning work done that's a formal engagement, you should be signing up for it. I think a lot of time they will ask for that from tax professionals.

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15:24:17 - 15:44:19

Catherine Tindall

And the tax professionals just don't see what they do a lot of the time. And our firm is different. We're completely structured that way. But if you're happy with your existing tax professional and need to advance that forward, sometimes it's having that conversation of, hey, I need more. 

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15:44:23 - 16:02:17

Catherine Tindall

They just think they're being hired to get the forms filed on time, rather than looking in the future, into what you've got going on. The number of times I've had advisors come back to me and they're like, yeah, they gave me estimated payments that were 20% of what they should have been because we grew double this year.

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16:02:19 - 16:20:28

Catherine Tindall

And I called them and said they never did anything. So it's like those are things you can control. If you're not having a responsive relationship, make sure you've set that relationship up correctly for your growth and for what you've got going on so you're not walking into a surprise at the end of the year.

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16:21:00 - 16:37:24

Catherine Tindall

Because I always tell everybody, the carriage turns into a pumpkin at midnight, December 31. That tax bill is set. There's a couple of maneuvers you could do with retirement planning but for the most part that tax bill is basically set. And so it's not a mystery.

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16:37:24 - 16:47:09

Catherine Tindall

You should know what that is. And it's not something where even during the year forecasting into, we can do math, we can do forecasting and things like that.

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16:48:01 - 17:10:07

Catherine Tindall

And so I think for a lot of advisors, my piece of advice going into the end of years is pay to have some projection work done, figure out if you've had significant change, figure out what that's going to be so you can cash flow forecast for that. And so if you're getting big quarterly brokerage checks, you know how much to push aside, there's a plan there; you have a plan on how you're making your estimated payments.

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17:10:09 - 17:21:24

Catherine Tindall

And if you're going to be making a change going into tax season or a change into a relationship, now's a good time to do that. Because then if there's other issues, you have the time to correct them before the end of the year.

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17:21:25 - 17:40:14

Lauren Hong

Such good advice — that forward thinking, not just looking at the kind of the business plan, right? Which I think a lot of times folks are doing end of year, thinking strategically about the new year. But it's the other parts of the business that, well, this just taps directly into the business plan. But it's a component that's worthwhile to take that time and energy to look ahead on.

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17:40:14 - 17:55:03

Lauren Hong

Well, this is wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing so many good case studies and just examples of how you have been able to help advisors and firms with projections and just supporting them with where they're at. So we can find you at Dominion dot CPA. Did I get that right?

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17:55:03 - 18:12:01

Catherine Tindall

Yeah, that's the website. Best way to get me though is LinkedIn. I'm really active on there. So for people who are interested in the work we're doing, send me a message. I'm always interested in learning what's going on in your world and being able to provide resources that'll help people get where they need to go in terms of questions they have.

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18:12:01 - 18:17:18

Catherine Tindall

Hey, I heard this; I get a lot of those kinds of emails. Hey, I heard this.

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18:17:21 - 18:32:22

Lauren Hong

Hey, you know, we do that too. I watched this video. Somebody told me I should be doing this. I'm like, okay, let's take a pause. Do we really need to do that shiny object? Unpack it, like you said. That's awesome, Catherine. Thank you so much. Always good to chat with you. I appreciate your time.

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18:32:29 - 18:35:09

Catherine Tindall

Yeah. Likewise. Lauren, thanks so much for having me on.

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18:35:11 - 18:41:02

Lauren Hong

Of course.

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We talked with Brandon about:

• How early financial education can help service members avoid common money pitfalls
• The importance of understanding and maximizing military benefits, available resources, and financial tools to grow wealth
• How financial advisors can effectively reach the military community to support members as clients

About Brandon Lovingier:

Brandon Lovingier, ChFC®, MQFP® aka The Enlisted Money Guy™, served over 19 years in the Army — including deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. After navigating his own financial challenges, he became committed to helping other service members avoid similar pitfalls he experienced and achieve financial freedom. Through his Enlisted Money website, blog, and educational videos, Brandon shares practical resources and strategies to empower the military community to make smart financial decisions.

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Featured Resources 

• Enlisted Money
• Enlisted Money Confessions
• Enlisted Money Success Stories
• MilMoneyCon
• ChooseFI Military Facebook Group
• Military Financial Advisors Association

Enjoyed This? You’ll Also Love

• A Journey from Army Officer to Fee-Only Financial Planning through Reading and Teaching with Ian Gates
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• Financial Literacy: The First Step in Becoming Your Own Money Boss with Jamie Bosse

‍

Full Audio Transcript:

00:00:00 - 00:08:11

Lauren Hong

All right, Brandon, thank you so much for joining us today.

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00:08:13 - 00:13:08

Brandon Lovingier

Hey, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be on the show and get to chat with you a little bit here.

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00:13:10 - 00:24:17

Lauren Hong

Yeah. So, we're going to get into it, and I am excited to hear about — is it enlisted money guide.com? Is that the website?

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00:24:19 - 00:26:16

Brandon Lovingier

It just enlisted money.com.

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00:26:18 - 00:38:21

Lauren Hong

Okay. So we were just chatting a minute ago. How in the world did you get in the space? What made you look for this? Tell us about who you are, your background, and Enlisted Money.

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00:38:24 - 01:02:15

Brandon Lovingier

Yeah, I'm a little bit all over the place but long story short, I was terrible with money and ended up realizing in a cold, stinky tent in Afghanistan that financing a brand-new pickup truck maybe wasn't the best idea and kind of realized that I could have almost bought the truck I had before that I loved in cash for what I'm paying in interest on this truck.

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01:02:15 - 01:25:02

Brandon Lovingier

So that led me down a whole long journey, through blogs and all that. Ended up doing the Total Money Makeover thing, the Dave Ramsey deal, getting out of debt. Fast forward, all that change has been really excellent in our life. And I wanted to help other people. And when I finished my bachelor's degree, I kind of had a void there.

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01:25:02 - 01:42:20

Brandon Lovingier

I was used to getting up at 4:30 in the morning, doing my studies and all that kind of stuff. And after I finished my bachelor's degree, I just started reading a lot of personal finance and getting into it and pretty soon I was like, I'm kind of at the end of all the 1.0 stuff, so where's the 2.0?

‍

01:42:20 - 01:56:14

Brandon Lovingier

The 3.0? And so that's when I really started kind of getting into just digging deeper and ended up looking into coaching, planning, all that kind of stuff. So that was really kind of the nexus for me, getting into the space in the beginning.

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01:56:16 - 02:07:01

Lauren Hong

So tell me about the 2.0 version. Have you been to it? I’d love to hear about how you unpack that and how you're supporting other people and that side of things.

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02:07:04 - 02:29:25

Brandon Lovingier

Yeah, I think there's so much stuff, especially whenever you get into a lot of blogs and stuff like that, it's like save more, spend less. What? Whatever. I got that. I got Roth versus traditional but why? And then I’m like a little kid — why is it like that and why is this like that and why is that like that?

‍

02:29:25 - 02:50:13

Brandon Lovingier

And what is this thing? So just the more threads you pull, the more questions you have. The internet has some ideas but there's nothing concrete. And so that was where I was like, I'm gonna have to go back to school to really understand this stuff because I wanted to help other people but I wanted to make sure I knew what I was talking about.

‍

02:50:13 - 03:09:19

Brandon Lovingier

I needed that confidence to make sure I wasn't giving bad advice. And so I originally looked at coaching and it seems like that's not really that well regulated. You don't have to have anything to be a coach, or you could do this AFC thing, or you could do, you know, whatever.

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03:09:19 - 03:36:26

Brandon Lovingier

But then I kind of stumbled into financial planning. I literally had no idea there was a profession called financial planning. And then before I knew it, I found a scholarship through the American College, applied for that and fast-forward, I've started a pair of planning businesses, started a couple different blogs, and I'm just doing stuff and trying to help people like me.

‍

03:36:29 - 04:02:14

Brandon Lovingier

Well, preferably somebody who was like me when I was 18, before I made all the mistakes. So that's really kind of what I'm trying to do and circumvent people having to learn the hard way. I've already made those mistakes. There's a lot of us who have already made those mistakes. And so I'm trying to kind of share what I know, and share other stories as well so people can see that and go, oh, I don't have to do it that way.

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04:02:14 - 04:08:25

Brandon Lovingier

I can do it a different way and have a much better life. So that's really kind of what I'm trying to get into as far as all that goes.

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04:08:27 - 04:20:13

Lauren Hong

So tell me a little bit more about who you're specifically targeting. Are you exclusively working with the military community? Or tell us a little bit more about that.

‍

04:20:15 - 04:43:14

Brandon Lovingier

So basically for my personal project, Enlisted Money, I'm trying to find PFC Lovingiers of today and help them out. But also, interestingly enough, I've been starting to write about preparing for my own retirement. And so I've been getting a lot of good feedback and a lot of questions and dialog with that.

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04:43:14 - 05:02:10

Brandon Lovingier

So I've been kind of leaning into that a little bit here lately. But ultimately I'm trying to get that information out. So literally if I could find somebody who’s coming into the military and be like, here's the information you need — do this, don't do that. And you'll never have to worry about money.

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05:02:10 - 05:13:04

Brandon Lovingier

And that's kind of what I'm trying to do. I even wrote the first draft for my book this summer. So hopefully I'll get that going too.

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05:13:06 - 05:21:29

Lauren Hong

Wow. Congrats. That's a huge undertaking. Yeah. Any sneak peeks you want to share? 

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05:22:01 - 05:45:14

Brandon Lovingier

Yeah. The working title is Enlist to Wealth, The Enlisted Service Members Guide to Avoiding Money Mistakes and Living a Better Life. I think that’s the subtitle now. I finished it in June, and then just said, I'm going to set it aside and I'm going to come back with fresh eyes later on.

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05:45:16 - 05:59:11

Brandon Lovingier

And plus I'm in kind of a busy season. I'm still on active duty. And so, I'm doing all this stuff in the margins before work, over lunch, at night. So I have to pace myself a little bit.

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05:59:13 - 06:14:02

Lauren Hong

Yeah, that's totally fair. Well, it's kind of nice that you're still in the thick of it because I'm sure you're having conversations and things are coming up so you definitely have your ear to the ground with all of that. But early congrats on the book. Do you have a timeline for launch?

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06:14:04 - 06:34:23

Brandon Lovingier

I don't. I'm just giving myself a little bit of space and taking my time with it. I'm not going to let it sit there forever. You know there's a tendency to be like, I could always make it better and all that, but my plan is to this winter, dig in and do my own first self-edit.

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06:34:25 - 06:42:23

Brandon Lovingier

And then save up a little bit of money to pay for an editor and kind of go through that process. So hopefully about the time I retire I'll have that ready.

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06:42:23 - 07:21

Lauren Hong

That's so awesome. Okay. So since you've been going through this whole process of writing the book and figuring this out, and then also just like your own personal experiences, are there any stories like the one you shared earlier about how you bought your truck?  

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07:23 - 07:18:08

Lauren Hong

Are there any stories that would help listeners, kind of like lessons learned if they were in your shoes? It was a great example about the truck. Any other kind of thoughts like, hey, if you do X, Y, and Z or be aware of this big red flag, what would you like to tell folks?

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07:18:10 - 07:45:16

Brandon Lovingier

Yeah, really the biggest thing is just understanding what pay and benefits you have and what you can actually do with that. And being really cautious about that. There's so many people out there who really prey upon service members and go, hey, look, you've got this steady paycheck. You're making the big bucks now or whatever and then get you to finance everything.

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07:45:16 - 07:59:29

Brandon Lovingier

I literally mean that. It’s kind of laughable now but I literally financed our wedding ring set at a place you could also buy subwoofers. So just to give you an idea of the kind of places that soldiers find themselves.

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07:59:29 - 08:03:12

Lauren Hong

It’s a real story, right? So go ahead.

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08:03:15 - 08:24:01

Brandon Lovingier

And as a recruiter, I got to see this a lot as a lot of us came from places where money management wasn't a thing because there was no money to manage. And so you're kind of in an uphill battle to a certain extent, at least with the enlisted folks.

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08:24:03 - 08:39:21

Brandon Lovingier

But getting back to stories and things like that, I actually have two pages on my website, one for Enlisted Money confessions and one for Enlisted Money success stories, just to be able to share those kinds of stories and things like that.

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08:39:21 - 08:57:26

Brandon Lovingier

So I don't have a lot of them out there yet but I'm starting to build up a few, I think. I just posted success story number five. And I think I'm up to confession number three or four. So we're getting there. I’m just trying to share that and let people know you're not alone.

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08:57:26 - 09:10:29

Brandon Lovingier

There's other people who are going through this or have gone through this. And, if you just take small, consistent action over time, you can do a lot with even the little pay you think you have there.

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09:10:29 - 09:26:16

Lauren Hong

So, with that, are there any good habits or takeaways or things you would say if you could go back to your former self and say? I’d love to hear that too.

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09:26:19 - 09:46:06

Brandon Lovingier

Yeah. I think the biggest thing is just understanding some of these things that are out there, and understanding the power of some of them, like for instance, when I joined, the only thing I remember from my brief on the TSP, which is our equivalent of a 401(k), is they're going to take money out of your check and you can't use it until you're 60.

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09:46:06 - 10:04:16

Brandon Lovingier

And I was like, hey man, I need this now. I don't know if you know much about my life but I need this cash now. And so I didn't invest anything in the TSP. Just by really dumb luck, I ended up starting a Roth IRA and putting 50 bucks a month in there.

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10:04:19 - 10:27:04

Brandon Lovingier

Before I knew it, there was $20,000 in there. And then it doubled, and it's continued to grow. I was like, man, if I would have done this, like 5% with my TSP from the get-go, I would have been in a much better spot.

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10:27:04 - 10:48:11

Brandon Lovingier

And I would have never missed the money. I spent money on cigarettes and everything else, and I never missed that money. If I would have put a little bit into something like that, I would have been in a much better position and I would have had a lot more confidence to leave the military sooner, if that was my choice.

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10:48:11 - 10:53:17

Brandon Lovingier

But I kind of always felt stuck, at least in the beginning part of my career. 

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10:53:20 - 11:10:27

Lauren Hong

Well, like you said, there's a lot of mixed messages. And then also, when you jump into the beginning part of your career, when you're thrown in, you're going for it, so you might be 18 but you're doing stuff — they throw you into the deep end of it.

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11:10:27 - 11:14:15

Lauren Hong

So there's that too. All of it.

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11:14:20 - 11:36:27

Brandon Lovingier

Yeah, definitely. And there's a book called “Scarcity” that I really like, and it talks about that a little bit too. When you have a lot of stuff going on and you're getting thrown into the deep end on many different fronts, you don't make the best choices because you're just doing everything fast and in a hurry.

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11:36:27 - 11:52:05

Brandon Lovingier

And there's so much information that's getting thrown at you. The way the military trained you a lot of times it's just drink from a fire hose. You get bombarded with all these mandatory trainings and you just become numb to it.

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11:52:05 - 12:05:06

Brandon Lovingier

And maybe it's good information. Maybe it's okay but you just end up going, this is too much. And I'll figure it out later. And then later comes and you're like, oh gosh, this isn't exactly where I wanted to be in life.

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12:05:08 - 12:23:05

Lauren Hong

Yeah, well, I appreciate what you're doing because by educating others who are willing to pick up the book or read the stories or listen, whatever it might be, hopefully you're cutting through the noise to be able to say these are decisions you don't want to make super quickly. These are the decisions you make to be smart for your long-term planning.

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12:23:08 - 12:43:15

Lauren Hong

So I appreciate that you're paying it forward in that way. Any other kind of thoughts you have for people who are at their 2.0? What things should they be thinking about at that point? Should they be talking with someone like yourself or what advice would you have for someone who maybe has done the Dave Ramsey, they've taken in these tips.

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12:43:15 - 12:47:26

Lauren Hong

And now they're ready to kind of go upstream.

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12:47:28 - 13:09:01

Brandon Lovingier

Yeah. I think that unless you want to do what I did to actually go back to school, there's a lot more resources available out there. The Military Financial Advisors Association is definitely one of them that's growing. I've got the MCV designation, the military qualified financial planner designation.

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13:09:03 - 13:29:26

Brandon Lovingier

So there's some grassroots efforts to create some of those next-level military-specific places you can go and you can turn to and get advice. And there is some advice on the options if you want to do that. There's a lot of different coaches and things that are available as well.

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13:29:28 - 13:55:28

Brandon Lovingier

Also another thing too. There are a lot of folks who just don't know they have some of these resources available, like having a personal financial counselor they can go to on post and pick their brain. That's literally their whole job, to answer questions, help you with a budget, talk you through the TSP, talk you through home buying, credit building, all those kinds of things.

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13:56:01 - 14:21:13

Brandon Lovingier

But just knowing that, getting the basics right, is the first thing. But then, once you have a little bit of — I like to call it Play-Doh — you can't make a great model if you don't have a lot of Play-Doh but once you have a little bit of Play-Doh built up and you can start making some cool stuff, then it's helpful to have somebody who’s been there before to say you might want to build this framework first before you start piling stuff over here and make it a mess.

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14:21:13 - 14:24:03

Brandon Lovingier

So yeah, that's kind of the way I think about it.

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14:24:05 - 14:43:21

Lauren Hong

Yeah. That's fair. I think sometimes there are so many resources for military personnel that it can also be overwhelming. And I often see too, if there's somebody who’s been through this or you can lean on, maybe they can just help connect that dot with the right resource to go to or what have you.

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14:43:23 - 15:12:07

Lauren Hong

Those are really good tips. And then any other kind of thoughts for folks who are listening in who might have a target market of working with the military and supporting them with making sure they're making smart money decisions? Any thoughts about how to reach that audience or things about how they communicate and talk with that demographic?

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15:12:09 - 15:40:25

Brandon Lovingier

Yeah. As far as financial professionals who want to serve the military community or think they might want to serve the military community, I would definitely first say get yourself out to ___________ at some point. I'm a huge fan. There’s a lot of wonderful people out there but there's a lot of different spots and things like that where you can find some other like-minded individuals; there's Choose Fi military Facebook group, things like that.

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15:40:25 - 15:57:11

Brandon Lovingier

There are some folks out there, good people. You just have to be cautious of folks who want to try and get you to replace all of your benefits with a particular policy of sorts, and things like that.

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15:57:11 - 16:21:17

Brandon Lovingier

So there's a lot of people who would rather have money to put into a product as opposed to letting you use your benefits. So people got to be cognizant of that, I guess. But if you're looking to get into this, I think that it’s really rewarding. And the military personal finance community is fairly small but the nicest and most welcoming group of people I've ever come across.

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16:21:17 - 16:25:10

Brandon Lovingier

I absolutely love this community. It's really awesome.

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16:25:12 - 16:42:06

Lauren Hong

So awesome. I really love hearing that. And thank you, among all the things you're doing in between writing a book, full-time active duty, and all the other pieces, you're running a website, all the things you have going on, just for taking the time to be able to share a little bit more behind the scenes of what you're doing to pay it forward.

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16:42:08 - 16:49:25

Lauren Hong

That's not easy to be able to squeeze out. And as you were saying earlier, in between everything that's going on. So we appreciate you sharing some insights today.

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16:49:28 - 16:59:16

Brandon Lovingier

Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate it. I love talking about this kind of stuff and yeah, if we can help somebody out then it's definitely worth a few minutes of my time.

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16:59:18 - 17:05:03

Lauren Hong

Well, thank you. And I'll just say like, go Chiefs there, a shoutout to your background as well.

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17:05:04 - 17:07:18

Brandon Lovingier

Thanks!

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17:07:20 - 17:11:01

Lauren Hong

Awesome. Well, thanks again. Have a great rest of your day.

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17:11:04 - 17:16:27

Brandon Lovingier

All right. Yep. You too. Thanks.

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