We talked with Brendan about:
- How to listen on a level that involves engaging with empathy and curiosity
- Why building relationships with clients should start with understanding their fundamental motivations and desires
- Creating deep connections by making clients feel heard and understood
About Brendan Frazier:
Brendan Frazier is a former financial services consultant with over a decade of experience helping financial advisors across the country. Through his interactions with thousands of advisors, he recognized a recurring theme: many felt they were acting more like therapists than financial planners. This insight led Brendan to explore the often-overlooked human side of finance, prompting him to launch his own advisory business. Committed to improving his understanding of behavioral psychology and communication, he started a podcast where he interviews experts in these fields. Brendan’s passion for merging the human aspect with financial advising has created a growing community of like-minded professionals eager to learn and evolve in their practice.
Featured Resources
- Brendan Frazier on LinkedIn
- RFG Advisory
- The Human Side of Advice Podcast
- Psychology of Money
- Advice that Sticks
- Never Split the Difference, Chris Voss
- Shaping Wealth
- Money Quotent
Enjoyed This? You’ll Also Love:
- Using a Coach Mindset to Unlock Your Full Leadership Potential
- How to Develop and Infuse Generosity Into Your Company Culture
- Enhancing Advisor Success: How to Add Value Beyond the Numbers Through Human Connection
- Six People You Need in Your Life to Develop Your Career
Full Audio Transcript:
00:00 - 00:07
Lauren Hong
Brendan, thank you for being here.
00:07 - 00:09
Brendan Frazier
Well, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
00:09 - 00:29
Lauren Hong
Yes. And we're talking about your topic, the human side of advice. You are a podcaster, keynote speaker, going to conferences, doing all kinds of things. How did you get into this world? How did you get into the whole human side of advice? I'm just going to throw it over to you. Share a little bit more.
00:29 - 04:01
Brendan Frazier
Yeah. So I mean really the short and sweet version of it is because I often imagined when I did these things, I always wonder how much do people really care? I want to know about the background of my journey and how much are they just wondering, what can you teach me and tell me that I can take back and use to make myself better off? So I'm going to tell this story, short and sweet. Here’s the setup. I used to be — about a decade ago, a little less than that — in financial services, working as a consultant to financial advisors. So the luxury of that or what that meant was I got to meet with, over the course of time, literally thousands of advisors around the country. So you learn a lot from that. You learn about how to do things, how not to do things, what you like, what you don't like. One thing I learned, because it came up over and over and over again, was you would hear something along the lines of, you know, Brendan, sometimes I feel like more of a therapist than a financial advisor. Or if it wasn't that, it would be, you know, Brendan, there's times where I think I'd be better off with a degree in psychology than I would a degree in economics or accounting or finance or financial planning. And so you'd hear it over and over and over again, and if you've ever worked with a human being about money, if you haven't said that out loud, you've at least started at some point. It's just the nature of the job we're in. And so I heard it over and over again, and I kept thinking, okay, what do we do about that? That's true. That's how we feel. Let's say it's at least equally important. A lot of people would say that. It feels like it's more the job. Let's say I don't believe that to be true. So let's say it's equally important. Then what do we do about it? We have trainings, designations, and certifications we can take to hone the money side and the technical side. What do we do for this human side? And then the most common response I would get was first of all, blank stare. And then second, it would be, I mean, read a book, man. Hey, is that good enough? I don't think that's good enough, right? If it's that important, we probably should be doing something more. So I started my own advisory business, got into that side of things. And so at that point in time, I decided, you know what? I want to get better at this. I know how important it is, this human side. I want to get better at it. I want to go on this journey to get better. And so why don't I start doing some research but then also start this podcast? I'll get to talk to some really cool, awesome, smart people who are experts in behavior and psychology communication. Worst-case scenario, I'll learn a lot, get to apply a lot, and use it in the work I do and in my business. Best-case scenario, it turns out there are other advisors out there who are like, you know what? I'm interested in this too but I didn't know at the time, right? So I launch this podcast. I'm learning a lot. Next thing you know, look at six months later, a year later, two years later, and lo and behold, there's an appetite for this out there. And so that's when I sort of started doubling down and went, okay, there are people who really want to know and learn this stuff. So I'm going to keep doing more podcasts, more research, more articles, speaking trainings, and all that. So it was sort of like this natural evolution of I sort of dip my toe in. I didn't know it was going to happen. I saw there is interest and demand for it. And I was enjoying learning the human side more than I was working with clients and learning the technical side. And so eventually just decided, hey, if you're having more fun, if you're enjoying it more and there seems to be an opportunity here, why not go all in and see what happens?
04:01 - 04:22
Lauren Hong
Super awesome. I hear that too. You know, like sales is all about people, right? Relationships. Like being able to pull out the nuances of conversation. That's all the people side of it. So you're right, it's not solely the things you know; it's the street smarts a little bit. Super interesting. So after having these conversations, are there any key takeaways you've had? I mean, doing this podcast and you know, giving these talks, any kind of themes you've seen across the board.
04:30 - 06:41
Brendan Frazier
So first of all, I just mentioned a second ago that I was going to go on that little rant there but also bring it back and make an example out of it. And so this kind of ties into what you just asked. But one thing we can learn from what just happened at the beginning of that conversation is you asked me a question about myself that was easy to answer. It had an emotional component. It was exciting to answer because it went back into my past and let me tell about myself in my past. And so, whenever we get to talk about ourselves, there's this part of the brain that lights up. It feels good. It's like a pleasure center. It's the reward part, the same area in the brain that lights up when you engage in sexual activity and eat chocolate. And so, as I'm sitting there talking about myself, I'm like, man, I enjoy this, this is fun. I mean, I'm not thinking it right. It's subconscious, right? But I'm enjoying it. It feels good. And what you've done, whether intentionally or not, is sort of create this conversational flow and momentum that can carry you through the rest of the conversation. And that's something you can apply to every single conversation you have, whether it's a podcast episode or just a meeting with a prospect or client. You sort of prime the pump. I'm getting a little bit out of my head, into my heart, feeling emotional and feeling good about talking. And you did a great job listening as I was talking. So, yeah. So I wrote a whole article and recorded a whole podcast episode. I now have a presentation called The Top. So sure, the human side of advice. And so what that was, was me going back and saying, we've done over 120 episodes. There's a lot in there. You could literally learn something every single episode. But what are the core themes that emerge that we can learn from, that we can take away? And most importantly, the core themes you can apply immediately in your practice that can make a big impact. And so there's 10 of them. I probably can't mention all 10 — that would take a little while — but I can pull out a few. There's one that always sticks out to me every time. And there's one that comes up over and over and over again. So it's what I've eventually decided to deem the most important skill in financial advice. So on the podcast.
06:41 - 06:44
Lauren Hong
Drumroll I feel like!
06:44 - 09:18
Brendan Frazier
Cliffhanger! I had to tease it. I know I've had the experts on and it's cool. I think back on those that are at education skills. I just had another guy on who teaches at Stanford, teaches communication skills. And everybody in the world of communications says the most important skill for improving your communication is the ability to listen but not just listen, right? But actually truly engage and listen with empathy and curiosity. And I don't even team up for this, by the way. If you had to pick one thing, we know listening is important. How important is that? It naturally comes up and also they'll just mention it. By the way, the most important thing you can do as far as communication is improve your listening skills. So it's one of those things I always knew was important, thought was important. One of the questions I ask on the podcast, to every guest, is who's the best listener in your life and what do they do so well that makes them such a great listener? But naturally this keeps coming up over and over and over again, which is just kind of cool because I believe in how powerful listening is. It's just really, really hard to do. So that's one of the main skills. And the big wrap up, time and again, is this idea of doing better planning and having better competence around money by not just focusing on their goals and what they want to accomplish financially but actually on Earth — what they value most in their life and are trying to create. How do you create a process that goes beyond what you want to do but goes into why you want to do it? Because once you know not what people want to do but what really lies behind it, the emotional motivating reason why, you really get to the point where you can align money with life, and then you take your conversations and your relationships to the next level. So some people are like, okay, what does that look like? Well, it's not the fact that I want to retire at 65. That's what I want. That's what the client wants to do. And that's good. That's fine. What do you want to do? I want to retire at 65. Okay, great. Well, behind every what lies a why. Why is it that you want to retire at 65? There's a driving force behind it. And so like one example would be, well, I want to retire at 65 because I want to be able to maximize the time I have with my family while I still have the energy and the ability to do so because my dad died when he was young, and we felt like we got robbed of time we should have had together.
09:18 - 09:19
Lauren Hong
It's the heart and soul of it.
09:19 - 10:22
Brendan Frazier
And it just changes the entire planning conversation. Now it's not like, oh, you don't want to retire. You want more time with your family. Are there other ways we could create that for you? Or is there a way you could retire now and then still do the work on the side, and you still make some money while maximizing time with family? I was talking to an advisor yesterday. He's in one of my mastermind groups and said, hey, what's going well this week? What do you guys run into? He was like, I've just been reminded lately of the power of what we do and how cool it is when I can just sit down with somebody and point out or show them, hey, I know you're planning on retiring in four years but here's a way to do it today. And they just look at me with a sense of relief. And so they're like, no way. Thank you so much. I didn't even know. What do you want to do? And have them say, I want to retire at 65, plan now and walk off. You've got to truly understand, hey, do you really want to retire at 65? What's actually the why driving the what. So those are two things are super cool.
10:23 - 11:39
Lauren Hong
It's really interesting. So we probably like a lot of organizations run a Net Promoter score. And you get the word bubbles at the end. And one of the things that always comes up is communications. And I've also had firms say to us that listening component, which is really interesting to hear, the way you pin it down because firms will say to us, you really listen to us and we're able to pin down who we are and where we want to go, not just all this kind of other stuff the world is trying to tell us. So I think applying it across businesses, right? And just relationships of really being able to listen but then being able to pull out those nuances is really interesting too. So, okay, so we covered those kinds of conversations, how to be able to stage different pieces is really key. I think you said there are 10 parts in your book or in the presentation you're doing. Are there any tips you would give to firms that go, we feel like we're doing a pretty good job with us but we want to do better, like ways to either train employees, maybe how they onboard or hire, I don't know if it's like coaching conferences they go to, just mentorship. What would you recommend to those firms that are saying we want to dial it up and aren't sure where to turn.
11:39 - 15:18
Brendan Frazier
Yeah. So real quick, I have to go back to something you just said before that question. I'll come right back to this because I think this is a really important point. You were talking about how you'll have like the call, you'll have clients say, and across businesses, one of the things they enjoyed or valued the most was that it felt like you truly helped me pin down what it was that I wanted, what it was I valued. So translation, what does that mean? It means they feel heard and understood, right? Which is what at our core, that's what all human beings want is for somebody to know you, trust you, and feel understood. And so, the “Harvard Business Review” did a study across industries where they found if you can create emotionally connected clients, if you can get to know clients and their fundamental motivations and desires, the things that truly matter to them, that creates clients they call emotionally connected clients, clients that pay more, refer more, follow through, and do what you ask them to do. And then also and for financial services specifically, they're more willing to consolidate or bring up doing more. That hey, there's this thing you can do, this method you could take or follow through and then collate assets. So you'd be like, tell me more about it. But that's ultimately what it boils down to, is creating emotionally connected clients by understanding their motivations and desires, make them feel heard. And okay, so I had to get that in there because I think it's the study that's out there that I've known about for years using a lot of my training. If for some reason it hasn't, I feel like we need to know more about it. So I just want to mention that. But yeah, so your question is what would you say to somebody who says, hey, we think we do this pretty well but what can we do if we want to do it better, do it differently? I mean, that's the fundamental question because everybody wonders if it's important. Everybody wants to know what to do about it. First thing I would say is that, just know in this realm, just like on anything on the technical side but in the realm of the human side, I've never met anybody who's nailed it to 100% completion where they're just like, we're great at it, and there's nothing more we could do to get there. It's like it's a constant practice. You have to be working on it growing over time. But I would also say I've met very, very, very few people or firms who are even really good at this stuff. So if you think you're good, maybe you are. We could be. And there's like some checkpoint assessments you can do to sort of feel that out. But I would just start that with the assumption that there's a lot of improvement to be made. So that's number one. And then where do you go from there? Why start a build? That's sort of what I started trying to focus on was to say, okay, how do we bring this to the firm so they can incorporate it, embed it, and simpler, I think it comes down to two things. At the highest level, number one is skills. So you first have to learn, know, and hone the critical skills of communicating and dealing with humans. And then the second part after skills is systems. So you've got skills and systems and systems is zero. Basically how can I apply this, embed this in my practice and my processes so it's there and it's consistent. And I'm not always wondering what I could do but it's just embedded in every part of your process throughout your practice. So now those are like the two places where you start. What skills do I need to learn how to develop? And then where can I systematize this? Where can I put this in our systems and our processes to make it a consistent, repeatable experience.
15:18 - 15:51
Lauren Hong
Are there any tips you would give to firms where sometimes certain skills are really hard to train to and sometimes people skills are really hard to train to when they're hired, like cues or red flags to watch out for, for candidates. Because there's a technical skill. But is there anything as part of the process, like questions asked when hiring or the way the job description is written to be able to pull that human side of do we have the right fit or can we further train to that skill set for the right fit?
15:52 - 17:10
Brendan Frazier
Yeah, I don't know. I've never really delved into or talked to anyone who researched how you filter and learn in the hiring process whether someone's got communication skills, right? I do think communication skills are important pretty much in any area of life, right? So they can always be honed and trained. But I think the principle that would probably apply is even if you hire somebody, if you're hiring somebody for a client-facing role, they need to have some level of skills, or they at least need to be willing to work, hone, and adapt those skills. If you have somebody you find out just doesn't have it and they don't really care, and they don't want to get you better at it, and they just want to look at spreadsheets — well, they just don't want to be client-facing because it really is that critical, right? But if they have an appetite to get better at it and learn, I think you can always hone and practice these skills. In fact, I would take somebody who as far as communication skills goes is a C but has a desire to grow over somebody who’s naturally a B but doesn't want to get any better and thinks they've already got it completely nailed down. I think the main point is to put people in roles they excel in but if you don't have these skills, they can be trained and developed. Doesn't mean it's easy, right? I guess I'll say that too. It's not easy to do but it can be done.
17:09 - 18:04
Lauren Hong
Yeah, I hear you. And I know earlier I talked about how you've consulted with tons of firms and have kind of the luxury to see the inside. I feel that too because we're consulting and working with tons of firms, and it's a real luxury to be able to do that and have that vantage point. One of the things I often see, too, is just the value base, making sure you've got that right value base when hiring, and even little things. Like for us personally, thank you notes. I know that sounds little but it's like those little extras that can make a really big difference. Just to see if that person does have that kind of extra thought to go above and beyond. Any final thoughts or things I should be asking that I haven't or any good books? You've got so many books back there; are there any good ones to read or things we should be watching out for?
18:04 - 21:29
Brendan Frazier
So I'm trying to think. I guess I would say two things. A question I get a lot of times so I know this is important is where should I go? What should I do if this is something I want to focus on, learn and get better at; where should I go? What should I do? So naturally, the answer to that question is almost always what resources are available? And that is important, and I'm going to get to that. But what I found, and it took me a while to figure this out, by the way, so I would have not have these trainings, have these advisors come in and teach the same things, you would give them the same resources, the same curriculum, same exercises, the same deliverables. And two people would get different results all over. Two people get completely different results. And so it bothered me for a while. I was like, I'm letting this other person down. And there's certainly an element of it, in terms of just like, being brought in and engaged. But it wasn't like that didn't seem to be the main differentiator. What I eventually sort of started passing out was those who got the better results. Those who truly saw the impact of embracing the human side were those who fully believed in why it was important in the first place. In other words, it's one thing to know, yeah, I think this is kind of important, and I want to try a few things here and there. It's another thing to fully embrace or have this mindset that if I embrace the human aspect, it's going to lead to better client relationships, better conversations, more levels of trust, more referrals. It's not only going to enhance my client relationships, it'll help them get better outcomes, and it's going to grow my business as a result. And so you first have to start with, why is this important? Now back to the why thing, right? What's the purpose? Why is this important? And then once you're dialed in there and you kind of have this foundation of why the human side is important, then you can go and that'll direct you in terms of now what do I need to go work on next? So now do the resources part, right? So as far as books go, “The Psychology of Money” is always a great intro, kind of a gateway book. Then another great gateway book is called “Advice That Sticks” by Dr. Moira Somers. It's up here in the bookshelf. Every time I mention that book, I always make a note to say it should be required reading for anybody who works with human beings and their money; it should be like CFP® and then “Advice That Sticks.” “Never Split the Difference” by Christopher Voss is one of the best tactical or practical books on communication skills. And then, other resources would be — I mean, I really don't want to do this because it feels awkward to say — but that's why I started the podcast; we really do work hard to try to make it the best resource for this out there. If you hear me say that and you're rolling your eyes, I got you. Don't download it. It's not going to hurt my feelings. But I think I would feel bad if I didn't at least mention it. And then, as far as trainings go, there's more and more that are cropping up. You've got Shaping Wealth and Building the Behavioral Advisor. There's the Kinder Life Planning Institute. Golden Gate University has some good programs. Money Quotient has some good programs. So there's also some trainings out there as well. And I think there's more that are cropping up. But that's where I would start essentially from the resource side.
21:29 - 21:45
Lauren Hong
I love it. I also appreciate just directing folks to the podcast. I do appreciate it that you can get nuggets of advice to be able to take it in. Sometimes I think these things are like building habits, and being just self-aware of the things that are going on. So I like the kind of bite-sized content to be able to apply to your day to day.
21:46 - 21:58
Brendan Frazier
Yeah. No doubt. Now my podcast is not bite-size by any means but you'll definitely get good ideas from it because our whole focus is not what do you need to know but how can you apply? How do I apply? How do I apply?
21:58 - 22:13
Lauren Hong
So I really love it. Well, thank you again for your time today and just for digging into this topic and helping people connect with people. And I mean, ultimately to be able to keep business, take good care of their clients, and just help people feel heard. So appreciate your time.
22:13 - 22:20
Brendan Frazier
Well, thanks for having me and for shining a light on what I obviously in a biased way consider to be an important topic in the industry.
22:20 - 22:22
Lauren Hong
Absolutely. Thank you for your time.
22:22 - 23:26
Brendan Frazier
Yeah. Thanks, Lauren.
