We talked with Jackie about:

• Building a connection by helping clients identify their needs
• Recognizing clients' various personality types to provide better customer service
• Trading quotas for goals for your financial advisors
  
  

About Jackie Mazur:

Jackie Mazur stepped into financial services using an educational approach that has continued to serve her and her team throughout her career. A pioneer in flat-rate financial planning, Jackie wanted to build her firm, Guide My Finances, to be an accessible resource for her community. On top of that, she’s the founder of the Financial Behavior Institute, helping financial advisors identify the nuances around financial beliefs and building relationships that align.

Featured Resources 

• Jackie Mazur’s LinkedIn
• Guide My Finances Website
• Financial Behavior Institute Website
• Financial Behavior Institute Linkedin

Full Audio Transcript

Lauren Hong
Jackie, thank you so much for joining us today. I am so excited to chat with you, especially after watching your recent talk that was given to hundreds of people in the audience. I know you shared it virtually as well. So specifically around this idea of really how to better connect with clients. Before we get into that, I'd love to hear a little bit more about your journey to where you got to today with your own firm and the research you've been doing, etc. So I'll let you share a little bit more to give a prerequisite before we dive in deeper.

Jackie Mazur

Yeah. So I don't know how far back I should go, but I started in the business—gosh, it's been almost 20 years. I was only 21 and I was just really finding my way, figuring out what did I want to do and how did I want to do it. And of course, at 21 you have no idea what's even available. So I started working for a company that was all about selling products, and I realized very quickly that I did not want to do that; I felt like a salesperson, not like an advisor. And so I ended up pivoting and at 23 I went out on my own, actually independent, under the supervision of a couple of veterans in the industry to make sure I wasn't getting myself into trouble. I also at that time went back and got my master's degree, got my CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™ designation, and started teaching as an adjunct professor.

I was teaching financial planning and managerial finance at the college level. And it was really fun. It was a way, honestly, to subsidize my income at the time because I was trying to build from the ground up without a lot of help and needed to have that money coming in. But what I learned from that experience is how much I loved educating not only clients but also other advisors or other young professionals who wanted to become financial planners. And that was really the first time I had experience, I don't want to say coaching, but educating, teaching people who wanted to become financial planners in a way that felt really positive—to be able to expose more young people to our industry, to grow the financial planning network, have more people involved, and teach them about financial planning, not just about selling.

So that was really kind of the catalyst for when I started wanting to teach, but also when I started Guide My Finances. So my current financial planning firm, I started in 2009 after graduating and getting my CFP® while I was teaching, and I focused primarily on offering financial planning for a flat fee. At that time, nobody was doing that. It was something very new where I had advisors telling me, why would you take a residual business and make it transactional? You're making a huge mistake. And I said, well, that might be the case but I want to do the right thing and I want to be able to advise clients, so I'm going to do it anyway.

Lauren Hong 
Right.

Jackie Mazur 
Fast forward 15 years later and we've grown just so much. We now are managing almost $200 million in assets. I have a team of 800 people, I'm sorry, of eight people, not 800 people and we're bringing on five to 10 new clients a month. All organically, word of mouth, saying they want a financial plan that's unbiased. So it's through all of these experiences that I wanted to not only obviously continue to grow my practice but be able to teach other advisors how they can do the same thing.

Lauren Hong 
Mm-hmm.

Jackie Mazur
I was told not to do it this way but I think it is the way to do it. 

Lauren Hong
Well, you feel like you can best serve people and they can be well taken care of. Can you share a little bit more about your talk and getting to this idea of being able to really connect with clients. That's a lot of clients you're working with, especially to be able to bring on new clients. How are you cultivating those relationships, maintaining those relationships, even working with your team to be able to sort of pull out those nuances? Can we hear a little bit more about that side of things?

Jackie Mazur 
Yeah, so I think that for our existing clients, we know them really well. We really make an effort to understand what's going on in their lives beyond just the investments we're managing for them. We're a very goal-oriented firm. So when we're sitting down with clients at the beginning or every six months or every year or however frequently it is, we're really talking about what do you want to accomplish? And not everybody knows the answer to that. So it's figuring out how we help them get into that. An example is, I have a lot of clients who tell me I want to retire as soon as possible. 

Through asking questions and really engaging them and having that connection, what we find is that they don't actually want to stop working. They just hate their job <laugh> and they want something different but they feel tied to that or they're afraid to make a change. So by having these really open conversations with our existing clients, we can build this connection by helping them identify what it is they're communicating. They might say, I want to retire but they may not; they may just want to downsize their job, work a little bit less, have a more enjoyable career. Something along those lines. 

Lauren Hong 
Go ahead.

Jackie Mazur 
I was just going to say it's helping them identify what it is that they're communicating and then developing the strategy to help them reach it. And there's nothing more rewarding for both parties than helping somebody achieve the goals they've set out to achieve. And that builds an immense amount of trust.

Lauren Hong 
Is there anything you're doing in the discovery? Are you doing away with the traditional discovery? Are you training your team about how to be able to sort of better pull out those nuances? What approach are you taking to be able to set the foundation? Is it even happening in the prospecting phase of it? What are you doing to make sure it's that right fit and there's I guess that shared passion between you and your team and what you can bring to the table and the prospect or the current client?

Jackie Mazur 
So, yeah. So I think that's two things. So one, we don't have a questionnaire we ask people when we meet with them. My first question to prospects when they find us is, why are you reaching out to a financial planner today? 

And then I think one of the best things you can do is just be quiet and listen to what people are saying and ask questions to engage them rather than selling yourself. I heard years ago that the best conversations people have are ones where they do most of the talking. This is how they remember they've had a great conversation. And so let people share, ask questions to show you're listening and you're engaged in what they're saying.. And really dig into the big picture versus asking how much money do you have? How much can I invest for you? How is it being invested? It's not about the investments, it's about the bigger picture. And then the investments can be the secondary piece of the puzzle.

Lauren Hong 
So let's say they're kind of deep into the sales process, right? In that first meeting with them, have you already collected information or are just literally day one? How did you find us—just in listening to where they're at? So it's almost like doing away with a traditional onboarding.

Jackie Mazur 
So during the prospect meeting or that initial contact we are having a conversation about what are they seeking? Why are they looking for a financial planner today? Not just in general but what today made you reach out. Cause the chances are they've been thinking about it for a while but something may have happened recently that has made it have to happen today. I've reached a breaking point, my mother just passed away, I am overwhelmed at work and I need to find a solution. There's usually a trigger. I mean, not all the time but I would say a good amount that has made this sense of urgency. 

So if you can just ask questions about why today, what are you looking for? What's worked or hasn't worked? If they're leaving their old advisor, why, what weren't they providing you that you're looking for? And really get away from how much money's in your IRA. How much—it's not about that question.

Lauren Hong 
Transactional side of it if you want.

Jackie Mazur 
Yeah. It's more about that. Now after that initial meeting, we've already built a connection. We've talked about their goals, right? Yes, you need to get a sense of where they are from an income and asset perspective without digging into all of it. But we've built this level of connection. We now say okay, we're going to build a financial plan for a fee. So it actually doesn't matter how much money you have. You can have zero money saved or 10 million saved. This is how much I charge for my time to build out a plan. 

And what we found is that very frequently clients say, oh, this is what I've been searching for. I want to be able to work with somebody who can help me develop the strategy without selling me anything and without me having to move all my money to them on that first day. And so it's creating this ability to not even need the questionnaire until we're doing the planning. We will actually email them a list of documents we need to start the planning process.

Lauren Hong 
Right.

Jackie Mazur 
We collect them all, get them to us before the next meeting so we have the data to ask more questions but we don't even talk about most of those things on the first call.

Lauren Hong 
So you've got a team, right? Are you role-playing with your team to kind of help them learn how to kind of probe these questions out of prospects? Because for some people it's just sort of a natural thing and for other people it's just not as natural. How are you cultivating that culture to be able to make those connections with clients?

Jackie Mazur 
So I think number one, nobody has a quota of how much business they have to close in a month. I think this requirement to bring on a certain amount of clients or a certain amount of assets creates a sense of fear in the advisor the clients can feel. If somebody feels I better close this client, otherwise I'm going to lose my job, that client can hear that and feel that without even realizing it. So there's no such thing as that in our company. There's no quotas. There's goals we have, but they're not required. For the first six months anybody's working with me they sit in on the meetings, take notes, and do the planning. So they almost shadow me for six months to learn how I communicate, what the process looks like. They're doing the financial planning and they're sitting in all the meetings to learn firsthand while supporting me, taking notes and doing all the things that I don't have to do. So it's not paying somebody to do my job, it's paying somebody to support me while they're learning.

Lauren Hong 
That makes sense. Yep.

Jackie Mazur 
And then through that osmosis, they end up gathering the ability to do the same thing and not everybody's a great fit. I mean, not everybody can fit that mold, but those who love it do; they really are attracted to it and do an amazing job.

Lauren Hong
That makes sense. So one of the things we do here with our team is called DISC training. So you learn about different profiles and then you learn how to be able to better work with that individual based on the profile. And so you could be right in a meeting, you go, that's definitely a D person or that's definitely an I person. And so I sort of know this is what's important to them or this is a hot button. Now I know in your talk you've created these profiles of different kinds of people, right? Sort of avatars. Are you then also training your team on okay, this is that kind of avatar and these are the kinds of things they're gonna be looking for? Or how are you applying that kind of methodology toward your approach with maybe your recommendations or how you're fostering your company culture?

Jackie Mazur 
Yeah, so you mentioned this talk I did. I basically created the Financial Behavior Institute and through the institute I created a course to become certified as a Financial Behavior Planning Specialist. That course actually teaches client experience, communication, and financial planning, and does a deep dive into the eight different financial personalities or avatars as you said, to understand what certain clients are looking for, what their triggers are that have them walking out the door, how to best communicate with different personality types, etc. Everyone on my team has taken this course so they have an introduction to all of that, but when clients come in, we also label them within the office as a personality type. I know that for me personally, I don't love working with moguls or consumers. They're just not a good fit for me. And so if somebody comes in, and I see they’re a mogul, I send them somewhere else. Or hey, they're an architect, which to us means we better be really detailed with our explanation and our reasoning behind why we're making recommendations.

Lauren Hong
I think that was an engineer. Did you also coin that as an engineer in the talk?

Jackie Mazur 
The architect?

Lauren Hong 
Yeah.

Jackie Mazur
Yep. Almost all engineers are architects. I said I probably should have called it the engineer instead of the architect.

Lauren Hong
Because it fits.

Jackie Mazur
Then we have clients who are avoiders and we know if they're avoiders we better be very simple with our recommendations. Be very actionable and set things up in an automated way. So you may have somebody who's extremely detail oriented and relates more with that architect profile or somebody who's an avoider and just coming to you in the first place is overwhelming for them because they've always avoided their finances to begin with and they really just need someone to tell them, this is what you need to do. Let me set it up so you don't have to think about it again. Those are going to be two entirely different interactions.

Lauren Hong
Yes.

Jackie Mazur 
So if you're interacting this way with this person, it's not going to work or it's not going to work in the way that is going to feel supportive to that client. It's kind of twofold. It's identifying who they are, labeling this type of client, this client is this personality, and then knowing how to communicate and engage with that person or knowing they're not a good fit and sending them elsewhere, which is even sometimes the most valuable.

Lauren Hong
Yes, absolutely. Because then they're able to find that win-win for what they need and you know you're probably just not going to mesh with them in the right way, longer term.

Jackie Mazur 
Right. Exactly. It's understanding your core competencies and your company values or even your personal values and making sure they're aligned with the clients you're bringing on.

Lauren Hong 
Absolutely. Yeah. It's so critical to be able to have that authentic connection with who you're working with. 

Jackie Mazur 
Of course.

Lauren Hong 
Do you mind sharing a little bit more, because we talked a lot about I'll say a pre-client phase onboarding, but how about post-onboarding? What do you do to be able to maintain and continuously build those connections? Or do you have a cycle where you're doing outreach or are there client gifts or just quick notes to let them know you're thinking of them? What are you doing? 

Jackie Mazur
It's all of it. 

Lauren Hong 
Okay. Wow. So I love all the processes you've built into these concepts, but go ahead. 

Jackie Mazur 
So we definitely have client segments. And on the Financial Behavior Institute website, there's actually a client segmentation tool you can download if anybody is looking for how to do that. But we have our A clients, B clients, C clients, D clients, just like a lot of firms do. And depending on the tier, they are going to receive a different level of outreach, right? Everybody is going to get a birthday card or gift or something depending on where they're at. We are going to reach out to every single client at least twice a year, but we might be reaching out to our A clients once a quarter where our D clients we might be reaching out to twice a year. So it really kind of varies from there. I think the one key piece is how they fit into a different category isn't just about revenue, it's about personality and connection as well.

The clients you really connect with are easy to connect with and easy to spend time with and you're going to want to spend more time with them just by design, where you may have a client who is generating a lot of revenue but the interactions are not enjoyable, right? <laugh> So you might want to move them down a little bit down that list. So we have different strategies for each of those. I have a rule in the office: if somebody emails us, regardless of what category they're in, or if somebody calls, someone needs to respond within 24 hours, even if it's to say, we've received your email and we will get back to you in two weeks.

Lauren Hong 
Yep, yep, yep. 

Jackie Mazur 
Little things like that make an enormous difference. I know I've reached out to people and I don't even know if they got my email and I'm then a week later, hey, did you get this? Hey, did you get this? And meanwhile it was on their docket but they just didn't tell me.

Lauren Hong 
Yes.

Jackie Mazur 
Communication is huge regardless of the personality type to say, I've got it, I'm working on it, I can get this back to you at this period of time. If you need it sooner, let me know. And most people are not in a rush. They're happy just to know that you're working on, received it.

Lauren Hong 
Yeah, absolutely.

Jackie Mazur 
So communication is really important. I don't really do client events or anything like that, so it's reaching out via phone, reaching out via email. We work with a lot of clients who work for publicly traded companies. We track their stock and if a company's stock jumps 15% in one day, we're going to reach out to all those clients and say, hey, I don't know if you realized but your company stock jumped 15% today. Why don't we log into the system and see if we should sell any of it?

Lauren Hong 
Mm-hmm. 

Jackie Mazur 
And that's something I think a lot of advisors, at least the ones I communicate with, don't think about. So it's not, this is what we're doing for everybody, it's how do we connect with and serve and support our clients who have different needs.

Lauren Hong 
That makes sense versus it being sort of tiered by assets.

Jackie Mazur 
Correct. Yep.

I mean, obviously assets and revenue are how we run our businesses. But I have some clients who maybe we're making less money on but because we have a level of connection, they refer me a client a month. I'm not kidding. And so that is an A client for me, even though they specifically don't have enough money to be in that A tier. They're one of my top clients, they're my ambassador. So I don't want to only send them a birthday card or only reach out to them once a year because they're supporting me. I want them to feel supported. Those are your best clients, honestly.

Lauren Hong 
It's this correlation between connecting with clients and customer satisfaction that then ultimately creates longevity and referrals and sustainability.

Jackie Mazur
Yep.

Lauren Hong 
Oh my goodness. So fun. We're about at the top of our time but I feel like we could talk for quite some time on this. For anyone who’s looking to sort of better connect with clients or tools, I know you mentioned there's a few tools you've created that folks could glean from you. Do you have any quick wins if you will, or if there's one thing you would do, do you think it would be the 24-hour responding rule or that sort of thing? The one takeaway for connecting with clients.

Jackie Mazur 
I didn't prepare to answer that question, so let me think. <laugh>

Lauren Hong 
I threw it at you. 

Jackie Mazur 
I know. I do think the 24-hour response is huge. Think about when you reach out to somebody and you don't hear from them, how that makes you feel. Or if somebody replies to you immediately, how supported you feel by that person. So I think that is a very big one. I also think asking open-ended questions and then using active listening to actually hear what people are saying instead of waiting to talk is a huge communication skill and technique financial advisors should have or should try to develop because I think very often we have so much to share that we do so much talking and we end up overwhelming our clients instead of just letting our clients share their fears, their goals, what they're feeling, how they're feeling, and then listening and connecting with that.

And there's a communication technique called mirroring, which is sometimes the cadence you speak or the demeanor you have but other times it's just connecting on a similar situation. A client is sharing a fear of the market or something and you can share a story about a feeling you had that was similar or a client who had a similar experience but how you were able to help turn that around and build that connection through storytelling—without being overbearing with your stories and making sure they've had a chance to talk too. <laugh> That's a nuance, right?

Lauren Hong 
<laugh> Yeah, it's so true. It's this balance. It's that empathy side to be able to make sure people feel heard. And sometimes people just need a trusted place where they can be heard. And if you can become that trusted place to hear what they need, then it helps to create that win-win. 

Jackie Mazur 
Exactly. Exactly.

Lauren Hong 
Oh my gosh, so fun. Thank you so much for sharing about what you've done. I admire the way you've built your firm and the courage you've been able to take to be able to do so, especially at such a young age to where you are today. It's proven in the success you've had. And I also admire that you've put together this whole formula. I think it's an interesting model for others to learn from, sort of an approach around building connections. 

Jackie Mazur
Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that and I appreciate your time today and reaching out.

Lauren Hong
All right. Well thanks again, Jackie. We'll make sure to include all the notes below and links for folks and all of that. So thank you again.

Jackie Mazur 
Thank you.

We talked with Sarah about:

• Leveraging your personal connection to the industry to energize your work
• Finding a better fit client by being authentic in your marketing and actions
• Meeting clients at their emotional needs to help them unblock

About Sarah Carlson:

Having grown Fulcrum Financial Group over the last 26 years, founder Sarah Carlson is an established CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™ professional, Chartered Life Underwriter®, and Chartered Financial Consultant®. In her recent book, Facing Financial Fears: 8 Steps to Financial Freedom for Women, Sarah steps up to empower others to move from fear to joy with money by helping them discover and love themselves. The end goal: to not only live wealthy but wellness wealthy in their own unique way.   

Featured Resources 

• Sarah’s LinkedIn Profile
• Fulcrum Financial Group Website
• Fulcrum Financial Group Facebook Page
• Facing Financial Fears Book on Amazon

Full Audio Transcript

Lauren Hong
Okay. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for joining us.

Sarah Carlson 
Thank you so much for having me, Lauren. This is really exciting.

Lauren Hong 
Yeah. Well, I appreciate you taking the time. I know you've recently written a book, you've really leaned on a target market. You're doing all kinds of education training. And before I steal your thunder, I'll let you do a brief introduction and then we'll get into kind of the nitty gritty of how you've been able to really lean in and build these different tools for folks you work with. So I'll let you do the quick intro here.

Sarah Carlson
Thank you. So my name is Sarah Carlson. I founded Fulcrum Financial Group 25 years ago and we're a wealth management, financial planning practice in Spokane, Washington. We have clients all over the world; we really help people, one person at a time. We embrace diversity and inclusion, and it's just been such an amazing industry to really profoundly, positively affect clients in helping them live their best lives.

Lauren Hong
So I have to say as someone on the this side of marketing, we talk with a lot of different firms and one of the things that sometime is scary for folks, especially if they've been in business for a while, if they go, okay, we really wanna lean in on a particular target market but we don't. Right? I get that a lot. It's like, okay, we're gonna go after business owners but we still wanna be able to talk to retirees who are our current clients and how do we do this and everything. And you've done a really nice job. I mean, even as you shared in the introduction, working with diversity, equity, inclusion as a main focus, and you work with a lot with women. How have you comfortably leaned into that particular target and how did you decide to go about really leaning into that space?

Sarah Carlson
Yeah. I see there's such a demand for helping that market. I, myself, being a woman, I've gone through a lot of change and adversity in my life. And having so many people who are making very challenging decisions, having good advice and having access to people who have experience and perspective to help them make decisions, it was almost like I realized the benefit of being authentic and having your vibe attract your tribe. 

I’m also a mother of two sets of twins. They're young adults now. So after 25 years, it's definitely a different vantage point now. But, you know, there's just so much balancing, right? As women, we tend to prioritize everyone before ourselves, our children, our partners, our bosses, our clients. And we always think we're gonna have more time and more resources to take care of ourselves. And I realize I'm so passionate about money and financial situations because I feel like it's the one thing you can control with some game plan and working on your life and not in your life. And it's just a way for me to really provide value. So I've assembled a team of incredible problem-solvers and it's just so rewarding to help people navigate through life and see their life unfold. So it's not just about making good money decisions, it's also about emotionally feeling comfortable with the game plan and being able to pivot and make different choices. So it's not just about putting a plan in place, it's really about taking care of that plan.

Lauren Hong
Yeah. That makes sense. And I love what you said earlier too, about this idea of authenticity and passion, right? Because I feel like if you're authentic, if there’s an audience or a topic or something you care about, that kind of energy resonates. And like you said, it attracts like, right? So I think there's something to that. So going along that sort of vein, let's talk a little bit about the book. What led you to write the book? Was it over the years of building out the practice, was it really leaning in and working with different clients? What sort of got you to that point? Or what was the trigger to go, okay, I'm gonna do this big, hairy, audacious goal.

Sarah Carlson
Yeah, it was seeing the incredible magic unfold in our clients' lives and having people come back and just be so connected and appreciative of the work we were doing. And I wanted the ability to touch more. I had myself gone through a very contentious divorce, and I learned so much. And even though I was an expert in the money business, I learned so much more about those money decisions. So it started with me blogging and wanting to share that information, and I was blown away by the positive response I received from people I didn't know. I didn't even know they were reading my content. And so at that point I thought this is an opportunity for me to put something together to just touch more people, one reader at a time. So Facing Financial Fears: 8 Steps to Financial Freedom for Women was born.

It was a long process. Probably wrote three books and probably took longer than most writers would take but I really wanted it to be right. And the final product is something I'm very proud of, and I'm just so touched and blown away by how well it's received. So it's in soft cover, hard cover, Kindle, and just recently came out with an audible version. 

Lauren Hong 
Oh my goodness. What a learning curve to be able to put a piece like that together. How did you go about it? I mean, you're running this firm, working with the team and clients. Was this something you sort of do on the weekends, or how did you even find the time to be able to put together this kind of piece?

Sarah Carlson 
Yeah. Something I do to take care of myself is wake up early. And when my kids were young, I'd wake up before I needed to get them up to get them off to school. And so I still to this day, I take about at least an hour or two hours every day after I wake up to journal; I write and I exercise and I just light my brain on fire. I feel so blessed to be in this industry and just absolutely love it—it gives me energy so it doesn't feel like work at all. And I think that's what I would want for anybody in any profession, is to have something they're just connected to.

Lauren Hong 
Yeah. That's wonderful. And just to make a note about what you shared earlier, talking about the book. I know you talked about you're putting out content and you didn't even realize people were reading it, right? And I think something that's kind of funny too, is that you're putting out things and sometimes you get a like or you get a comment but people are sort of watching all these little things you're putting out in the world. And so I think it's not easy to then be able to ride that, and then to be able to provide something that's more valuable and authentic to folks to be able to provide even more value in the world. So you just never know, I guess in the end, you never know who's watching, right? 

Sarah Carlson 
Well, and to that point, I consider myself a real Girl Scout. I call myself a wing woman. Someone said, does that mean you're helping people date? I'm like, no, it means I have got your back and I have perspective and tools to make sure to help keep you safe in a situation. And that's where writing content and sharing ideas—and to that point—we're not gonna be everyone's cup of tea but that's where if you can share your ideas and market in a way, then your tribe will find you and you'll end up getting a better fit.

Lauren Hong 
Yeah. That's so true. So along kind of that vein, and you were talking about just your own self-care. I know you write a lot about this idea of mental wellness, right? And I'd love to hear a little bit more about that, and also the intersection of it with finances. And being able to make sure you're set up for success, knowing that's an intersection you touch a lot on. So do you mind sharing a little bit more and maybe even some takeaways for folks who are listening? 

Sarah Carlson 
Yeah. So I graduated from Yale with a degree in economics and a minor in psychology. And I always felt there was so much connection between the markets and how people are feeling. And I think it's probably been more so now than ever. I’ve always led with it's not just about being rich and having a lot of money in the bank; it's really about being wealthy, wellness wealthy, where everyone's goals and what helps build security and comfort is different. My goal is that our clients have enough money so they get to spend time and energy with the people they wanna spend it with, where they wanna spend it, for how long they wanna spend it. And it's different for everyone.

Lauren Hong 
Just out of curiosity, do you lean kind of in on that as you're doing your discovery with clients? Is there something unique in the way you do that, or in the way you maybe carry out your engagement with clients to make sure that passion, that mental wellness, the financial wellness, is leading forward versus just sort of a transaction or a plan, if you will?

Sarah Carlson 
I think so. We always give a complimentary consultation for folks to come in to see whether or not we're a good fit. And I have so many stories. I'm thinking about Brenda, who's an artist who not too long ago came in. She had incredible income, makes these incredible pieces of art for like $20,000 apiece, and yet she was in debt. She made a ton of money but she was perpetually in debt. And so through cash flow analysis and helping to figure out why there isn't more money to put aside, we realized she had this incredible expense with luxury goods. And what was so fascinating about that is she was a very reclusive person. She was single, middle aged, didn't have a boyfriend, she was kind of a homebody. And so in looking at it, I was like, what's with all these Gucci shoes?

Lauren Hong 
Yeah.

Sarah Carlson 

And then she confided in me. Well, you know, at the end of the day, after I pour myself into my work, I wanna reward myself, and so I buy myself these beautiful gifts that then arrive later. And what was fascinating to realize it was part of her self-soothing, for emotional reasons, that was keeping her in a hole in perpetual credit card debt. And so in short order, I asked her, what would ultimately be the dream you'd wanna have? And she said, I'd wanna own my own studio, my own building, build equity, and be able to put more money into financial independence, retirement. Which was interesting, because with the rent she was paying and the luxury goods, we were able to get her into a space. She now owns a building, and this is like literally like just a few months after we started working together. 

After buying the building, her overall cash flow is less, so much less than it was before. And she's even putting away the maximum for retirement. And so every time I see her, she's like, oh my gosh, you've changed my life. And she hasn't even been a client that long, but it's so rewarding to help meet her at her emotional needs and help her recognize aha, these beautiful clothes I'm never gonna wear and would have a difficult time even getting rid of were holding her back. What she thought was helping her was really hurting her. And it took me to give a different take on it.

Lauren Hong 
So sort of like what utility is that adding to the bottom line of passion, if you will, or the bottom line of sort of what you want for an end goal. So interesting. So it sounds like part of it is asking the right questions and the discovery and being able to kind of pull that out through the individual to be able to get to put the plan in place so it’s not just a plan for, how do I say, a plan for long term, but a plan for passion, a plan for what you want out of life too. What about with your employees? Do you have anything internally to where you're helping them with that financial wellness side of it as well?

Sarah Carlson
Yeah, definitely with my back office, it's LPLl Financial, and I certainly help with educational programs and they've been very supportive with the book. So that's been a wonderful way to give back. And then with my own team, we have processes and systems we work on problem-solving with every client. We all do different pieces of it. The young people coming in many times don't have the same level of experience our advisors do—between the three advisors on my team, we have over 75 years of experience, which is just crazy when I think of it. They are definitely able to work on the systems and participate in the process, which is probably the best financial education any young person could have.

Lauren Hong
Okay. That's great. And then I know from earlier that you're doing some training as well for others around this idea of financial education and mental health and all that. I'd love to hear a little bit more on that too, sort of an outpour of the book.

Sarah Carlson 
Right. So it's been wonderful. I haven't done a lot to market the book. It made the bestsellers on Amazon and has gained traction in the financial industry. So I've had some large wirehouses and in the independent space I've had the opportunity to share my philosophies and different ideas to help their employees get a handle on their financial life. Because it doesn't have to be a big step to make an important difference in your life. And it's not just about being financially secure and getting to your goals. It's really about getting to the goals if you're a parent, your parenting plan, your relationship goals, your spiritual goals. It's really about wholeness, financial fullness.

Lauren Hong 
Yep. And that’s easier said than done, right? So I'd love to hear if you were just sort of to give an elevator pitch or a high level of your philosophy around it too, just sort of a recap for folks that are listening. 

Sarah Carlson
Well, I believe the way to help a client go from fear to joy with their money through some curious steps is to help them find themselves. So my book is really about financial empowerment. It's really about helping the reader discover and appreciate and develop self-love. It's about getting okay with yourself. I love the acronym, that book, Grit. They talk about that grit is the combination of passion and perseverance. And I think every advisor out there most likely probably has that. But I think there's also another opportunity with the definition of grit and using grit as an acronym—get right in there—meaning you have to feel good inside to really be able to launch and live the life you want, you know? Being okay with what's going on.

Lauren Hong
Yeah, absolutely. I feel one of the biggest gifts you can give yourself is to be able to answer those tough questions too—sometimes for better or worse—and some folks are able to answer and some just aren't. And so if this book can be able to help tease that out of them, I think there's a lot of beauty in that as well, which probably I would assume is your job if someone comes to you. I dunno if it makes it easier, but with that clarity, the idea of what north is, you can get to that better outcome, if you will. So that's so wonderful. Well, anything else you wanna share too around the book or your philosophy or approach to what you're doing? Just any closing thoughts?

Sarah Carlson
Well, I want to share with every advisor and consumer out there that you're worth it, you are worth prioritizing and creating some time and space. I mean, the one thing you can't create more of is time and energy. And so by dedicating a slice for yourself, you are going to be just so much better off, you're gonna be a better mother, you're gonna be a better partner, you're gonna be a better employee and advisor. So I really want to encourage people to prioritize themselves and work on themselves and not get caught up in the fear of missing out. 

Lauren Hong
Yep. Absolutely. It's so true. There's a lot of shiny objects out there in the world, right? So being able to be true to self is much harder, like I said, easier said than done. So thank you again for your time for sharing. I think not only for being able to share your story about where you've gotten to with the firm but also just for taking the time to be able to put together a piece like this and be able to share that with the world so others, if it's your clients, if it's prospects, if it's just folks who run into it, can really lean into those years of experience, as you've been able to, I'm sure, see behind the curtain with so many people's lives, which I'm sure would better equip you to be able to ask those tough questions. But then you're not just sharing that among those folks who are clients. I think it sounds like the book is really a gift you're giving to the world to be able to help others who are ready to sort of tease that out and lean into it. They have a template, if you will, to do that. So thank you for your time to put that together and for sharing with us today too.

Sarah Carlson
Oh, thank you so much, Lauren. And the services you provide can help us as advisors make a meaningful impact in getting that information out. We have a lot of information to share and having a good strategy, like you help folks develop, it's really, really important. So thank you for the work you do.

Lauren Hong
Oh, absolutely. Well, we'll make sure to include links as well to your website and book and other resources and we'll go from there.

Sarah Carlson 
Awesome. Thank you.

Lauren Hong 
Great. Thanks.

We’re excited to announce that Olivia Tobolewski has moved into the role of marketing implementation specialist on the Out & About team! Her amazing energy and can-do spirit supports the ongoing success of our clients. 

In her new role, Olivia will work on a variety of projects to support marketing strategies using data, analytics, and technology and continue helping clients tell their brand story through visual layouts and digital graphics. She will use her extensive experience and deep skill set to support and improve future campaigns, websites, and so much more. 

We’re thrilled to have Olivia on the team and look forward to watching her continue to shine bright. Congratulations, Olivia! 

We talked with Gail about:

• "Sending the elevator down" to help lift up the next generation
• How our mental health affects how or if we invest
• Why everyone needs a board of directors for their lives

About Gail Perry-Mason:

Gail Perry-Mason’s prowess as the senior director of investments at Oppenheimer is just a fraction of the deep investment she makes in her community. Inspired by her own journey, Gail’s true passion includes investing in today’s youth and cultivating a community around them to elevate their financial footing. Through exposure and development, Gail teaches young people how to make money work for them. She shares tips about time management and finding a work-life balance that may inspire others to start making moves toward their next big dream. 

Featured Resources 

• Gail's Linkedin
• Gail at Oppenheimer
• Gail's Twitter
• Money Matters for Youth
• Junior Achievement USA

Full Audio Transcript

Lauren Hong: 

All right. Well, Gail, I am so excited to have you on the show today. I was just reviewing just your background and resume and it's so extensive and impressive. Your career went from receptionist to senior director—talk about hustling—and then you have been a speaker for government agencies, religious groups, nonprofits, youth organizations, universities, and the list goes on and on. And then you have this really rich experience working with the youth investment club. And then Money Matters for financial literacy. And I'm so excited to dive into that. I mean, not only for the work and the knowledge you have within your day-to-day, but then you've been able to really cultivate a unique voice for youth and for families around financial literacy. So I'd love to just start there and let's maybe start with a little bit of your background and your story and then we can get a little bit more into the financial literacy side and how you've really been able to create a voice and show your passion through that. But I'll turn it over to you. Let's hear a little bit more about your background. 

Gail Perry-Mason:

Thank you for this opportunity and thank you for just being so awesome and just letting me tell my story and letting others tell their story. We need people like you in the financial service industry who do podcasts and tell our story because everybody looks at the financial industry and thinks they're just stuffy and this and that. No, you give a voice to everyone. So I thank you from my heart to your heart that we are doing this. So anyway, I started out, and I don't know if you want me to bring this up, but I was adopted in Detroit and all this stuff, foster care, missed growing up, and got adopted by an older family that never knew anything about the financial industry. 

They just said, Gail, have a joint account with Jesus at the credit union that only you and Jesus know about. And I was like, okay, that's all I knew. It was just to have an account at the credit union. I grew up in a strict household but then I went away to college and I ended up having a child in my second year of college. So I was broke of course like most people. And then I ended up having to send my resume out everywhere and I was like, oh my God. I sent my resume out and a brokerage firm called me and I was like, oh wait a minute, <laugh> this is divine order: I'm broke—brokerage firm. I had no clue about the stock market at all. 

So I didn't even know what a brokerage firm did. But anyway, I became a receptionist and as you can already tell, I love to talk to people and meet people. So I was a receptionist and everybody was coming in the front door. Nobody looked like me. And what I mean by look like me, the gender was all males. This was in the ‘80s, all males and nobody was African-American. So I was like, oh wait a minute. And it was gnarly. So one time this woman came in and was just so nice to me. She had just got divorced and I got divorced also. And I was like, wait a minute, you got divorced. 

I'm thinking, okay. And she says, well, why are you here? She said I'm coming to invest my money from my divorce settlement. And I’m thinking the only thing I got from my divorce settlement, matter of fact, was overdraft protection on my line of credit. Yeah. So I got nothing; I had no settlement at all. Just goodbye. So anyway, so says I'm gonna have a million dollars. I'm thinking you got a million dollars. Like, well basically who did you marry? But anyway, that's a whole other story. So I said, wait, what are you gonna do with this money? I need to talk to you. I need to know what are you gonna do? She had small children. I said, how are you gonna make it? What are you gonna do? 

She said, I don't wanna work. I wanna raise my children and I'm gonna live off the dividends. And I'm thinking, okay, I'm gonna learn everything that's going on. So I always say success leaves clues. So I look at what she was doing and living off the dividends. So that's why I became a secretary. I said can I get promoted to a secretary please? And they allowed me to do that. And then actually going to people's accounting, okay, dividends, you're doing this, you're investing. I'm like, I have to teach people, this is how life is supposed to be. We're supposed to work for our money and money is just a tool and then we make it work for us. So I say, oh, let me figure out how to do this and how I'm gonna teach people. The only way I'm gonna do that is to get a license. 

So I asked them, could I get licensed? And they were like, yo, no, no, no, no, no, you cannot get licensed. Actually what was told to me, this was back in the ‘80s, you're African-American or you're Black and you're a single mom; the answer is no. You cannot become an investment advisor. Well I worked for some rookies, that's what they called 'em back in the day. And I worked for some other established investment advisors. So I was the secretary for them or sales assistant. So one of 'em left their books on the table one day. Lauren, lemme tell you what I did. There was a copy machine; I picked up my son from daycare, came back to the office, and Xeroxed the Series 7 study guide. I studied every morning. Oh wow. And it was a sales assistant who sat next to me because nobody would actually allow me to do it. 

So the sales assistant—this is why women stick together—she and her husband paid for me to take the test. So anyway, I ended up getting sponsored; my job said they'll never pay for me, never send me to training. Anyway, so fast forward, I took the test, passed the test, and then they took bets. I'll never pass it, but I became a licensed secretary. But I started putting on seminars when I was a licensed secretary after hours. And I called a guy named John Rogers from Aerial Capital and everybody knows who he is. Him and Melody Hobson called them to Detroit and said, hey, come on the seminar with me. And Melody was an intern at the time. So fast forward, I ended up opening up over 100 accounts at night, people investing and all. 

So I ended up coming in saying, hey, I got 100 accounts. They said okay but we don't want these little accounts. And I'm thinking, I just start crying. And they said but you know what? You can try to be a broker. We're gonna give you 90 days. If you don't make it as an investment advisor and hit these numbers, we want you to slide back over to another chair with wheels on it <laugh> and just go back to being secretary. Well anyway, I just slid over and just started teaching people and that's why I do what I do, Lauren. And that's when I became an investment advisor. So I would never change anything, any obstacle or any way in my path. But when I have changed, I wanna change for other people. And that's why I do what I do, Lauren, I send the elevator back down to the next generation. 

I don't want anyone to say no and deny people the opportunity I was denied. Even though I still made it in the industry, it was a different track that I was on. But I want people to actually have the training, be invited in to become an investment advisor and to teach people. So if I have a seat at the table, turning 60 this year, I look back and say, wow, I have 60 women who I have mentored who are now in the investment industry. Whether they're women and several African-Americans—over 20—who are in the investment industry. And the thing is to send the elevator back down and then they rise higher than me, which means they're doing better than I am in the industry. That is the reason why I'm here. And that is why I love and what brings me joy is that once a seed was planted, I learned we have to reach back and we have to teach others. We have to let them have a seat at the table with us. And that's why I love what I do. And that's why now I start with teaching children and our youth. 

Lauren:

Oh my gosh. Incredible. 

Gail:

That's what I do Lauren. And that's my backstory. 

Lauren:

That’s a great story—how you found your way to where you are but then have been able to, like you said, bring up the next generation. I'd love to hear more about that. So is that mostly through the Money Matters program or for the youth initiatives you're involved with? Tell me more about what that consulting looks like and really what that mentorship looks like. 

Gail:

Yeah, one day I was reading the Wall Street Journal and this was in 1996. Because I always read about successful people. I always say success leaves clues and we have to case out the situation, which means copy and steal everything <laugh>. I started casing early. So I ended up watching how somebody did a rich kids camp but in this rich kids camp you had to have so many millions in assets, which mostly the African-American community did not have at that time back in the ‘80s and ‘90s. And so I said, wait a minute, I gotta figure this out. How am I gonna do this in Detroit? So I did this: they had to bring $50 and have $10,000 in assets to send your kid there. Then your child had to have $10,000 to invest. I said, I'm gonna do it here in Detroit and I'm gonna make this work. 

So of course I put up my own money and I haven't had a vacation since 1996. I take off a week every year and I take a few hundred youth, I call them young investors. I divide 'em up like small cap, mid-cap, and large cap; small cap is elementary school, mid-cap is middle school, high school is large cap. And they graduate each year. So as they get older in different schools I ended up having them learn everything about how to invest. But the first thing I teach 'em is don't ever love anything. They can't love you back; money cannot love you back. But we teach them how to make money work for them. And I actually give them a pillowcase. And they actually write on the pillowcase how their money is gonna work for them while they're sleeping. 

So they have to actually do their vision board on a pillowcase or I have this one plate they have to write on. How are they gonna serve the world and make money also? So we have all these analogies so it's mostly an experience. So what I do is give our young people the experience of going to meet Warren Buffett, going to the Berkshire shareholders' meeting. So I take them actually to learn to vote. So they learn if you own stock you can vote. So I have young people who own Berkshire, who own all these companies, who actually go to the shareholders' meetings and then they have to set up their own personal board of directors, whether it's somebody who mentors, an accountant, a banker, a credit union, whatever you wanna call it. 

But then also in the last few years because of COVID, I incorporated mental health into everything. So I'm not talking about stocks individually but my kids will take stocks where DoorDash versus Uber Eats cause they eat out all the time. I can't believe these kids. So they do tug of war the very first day. So large cap versus mid-cap or mid-cap versus whatever. So they actually learn the strategy of the market and the strategy of when to hold on, when to let go, do your research, talk about your strategy, how you're gonna hold on or how you're gonna let go and not get burnt. But also when I incorporated mental health it comes to the same thing with anxiety, with depression, with hate, with forgiveness, you've gotta know when to hold on and let go. 

So I actually have change agents because everybody needs a change agent on their board. And that's actually to talk about mental health. So I have a lot of psychologists come out to talk, since a lot of reasons we don't invest is because of self-esteem, not knowing different things. And with my camp too, a lot of the young people, some come from affluent families and some come from foster care or some come from inner city Detroit who've never even gone outside the city limits. So I end up taking everybody and they all learn how to spell the word opportunity. And the word opportunity is the word unity. All of these young people come together and start their own business, set up their own personal board of directors. And we don't have enough time to talk about the success stories about them starting their own business. 

And now one young man, you're talking about 60 something million later, has his own staff in LA. I mean just the businesses that they have started. Even now we have a lot of young people who have clothing lines and everything, or they're in the financial services industry and they have their own venture capital funds. Now they're doing everything. I mean, I'm like, look at these kids having their own hedge fund and they actually start their own portfolio in the money camp. I say our youth are like Kodak film—they need exposure and development. We have to expose them to the world of finance. That's the main thing. And then we have to not only expose them—we can't just turn the TV on and expose them—we have to develop them with experience. 

For our young people, hands-on experience is everything. But the main thing we teach them too is gratitude. Once you learn something, you always write people letters. Like I do, I do gratitude notes. I do 10 a day. I will write John Richards or Melody Hopson, Warren Buffet or whoever or you know, the CEO of Ellevest, Sally, all of them. I write them a letter and just say, I'm proud of you. I don't ask them for anything. I just want people to know I'm proud of them. So the power of the pen is still so important. So they end each day writing a gratitude note to someone. So we teach 'em everything—how to sit at the table, for men how to hold the chair for a lady, and what fork to use, what knife to use. Because we have a board meeting on the last day. 

So it's from A to Z, whether it's fencing, lessons on how to stand up straight or it's how to sit down and how to eat pizza with a knife and a fork and what knife to use, what fork to use. So we teach them everything and how to start a business and how to budget is so important too. So I know I'm talking a lot Lauren, but I'm loving it. You probably have another question. That's my money camp. And it's my passion and Lauren, you know, for a living, as you already know, I work in the investment industry, but for life I invest in others and that brings me the biggest dividends and the biggest joy. I may not have the big portfolios like probably a lot of people listening to this podcast, but my portfolio of youth, oh it's tremendous. And their dividends are they will live on forever. That is what I want basically as my building wealth legacy. 

Lauren:

Amazing. I feel like there's a lot of people in this space and they wanna be able to give back and do the kinds of things you're doing but you found a space for it and you've made time for it. And how have you gone about doing that while managing to climb the ladders with your day-to-day as well? What was it? Have you been doing this at night, on the weekends? How have you been so successful in both realms? Both from a passion side plus having a family and all these other aspects of life? 

Gail:

Well, Lauren, I will say, and I know you know it's difficult having a family and trying to balance it. When my kids were younger, every one of them had to go through the money camp. Every single one of them had to work the money camp. And they're still, to this day, they'll take their vacation and come back and help me along with about 50 others. They will take their vacation time. So normally I never take a day off is one thing. I work seven days a week. My clients become my friends, they're my friends and my family and they actually come and help me teach the kids, whether they're business owners or whatever they come. So I use an all-inclusive, holistic approach to my strategy of balancing life where I include everybody. It’s like, hey, you like kids, you wanna give back, come on and help me. 

Help me with this passion, this mission. And then even a lot of my clients want to send their kids to the camp. So everybody gets involved. So it's kind of like all around a wraparound but balancing it, lemme tell you about balancing it, I have to start every single day. I literally start every single day on my knees because it is a strategy to do the right thing for my clients and have time for them, and then I have to write down, matter of fact, you probably see this right behind me right now. Okay, I gotta call this person, I gotta do this, gotta do this. And I do that every single morning. 

And then I try to balance and I take an hour out of each day, okay, let me follow up on money camp. This is what I'll give to money camp, give the rest to that. And then leading up to it I'll take a few days off and try to get it all organized. So I now have my own board of directors I've made up to say, hey, hey, I need help with this. I need help. And I think everybody, even our clients, I tell my clients to have their own personal board of directors that we can call on people because you need that life coach. You need that mental health coach. You need that physical coach, that somebody who helps you to stay healthy. And then I also have a meeting with my sons. I call them sunshine Sundays, and say, hey, okay, what can you do this year? 

How can you help me with the money camp? You know, what can you do? And it becomes a family affair. And what I mean by family affair, I have so many young people I call my sons and daughters and they all come over on Sundays too, and we work together. I love cooking. So I cook for everyone and then I end up, okay, let's do this, let's get this together. So it is difficult to balance sometimes but I do my best to balance and I keep a calendar and I just try to do what I can for everyone. And that's when it comes down to speaking and everything else too, Lauren. It's difficult but it can be done. 

Lauren:

I mean, it sounds like it truly takes a village. It sounds like you've been able to cultivate your community, both at work, personal, et cetera, to be able to pull everyone together. And then over time, how have you really been able to amplify the voice and the value here? It's like identifying the youth and creating those opportunities. People are aware of this program, this opportunity. What have you done to be able to plant those seeds and pull that together? 

Gail:

So what I've done absolutely is I plant seeds in different neighborhoods in Detroit with the youth. We actually go to different neighborhoods; this is how we cultivate families to really bring change. We plant a financial garden and we lead kindness rocks all throughout the year. Oh wow. So this is what I do. So many. Yes. So we planted gardens at homeless shelters everywhere. It's just so amazing. I love to plant a financial garden and have the youth go over and water it because to have anything you have to pour into it. 

I do have a village that actually plants a garden, that actually gives back and helps me. And so that's the number one thing we all do together. But the way I find my children, I will go and speak at different high schools in the city of Detroit or outside of the city of Detroit. I will also go to foster care homes. I also sleep outside with the homeless once a year. And I find a lot of homeless youth and they need this. And my one major success story I found when she was 16, she was sleeping in her car, her name is Courtney. And she was sleeping in her car. She thinks of me as her god mom. I call her my daughter and I followed her all the way through college. 

And when Courtney was sleeping in a car, I said, hey, I got you. I'm gonna make sure I work with the organization called National Association of Securities Professionals. We give scholarships every year. I said, I'll make sure you get a scholarship every year. I work with them and chair the scholarship bond and all of that. So I said, hey, we wanna make sure our youth can go to college because sometimes they just need the opportunity. I wanna make sure they're not poor. Poor means passed over opportunity repeatedly. She was in the system, foster care, she was passed over once we got her the resources she needed. She went to Harvard, she went to Eastern Michigan. She has her own organization called the Phoenix Center. She gives back, she's a Rockefeller. She gets money from the Rockefeller Foundation. 

I mean, you name it, she's killing it. Courtney's just doing great. I'm so proud of her. So I will find them; I don't care whether they have a home. And the thing is, when I was born, this is why I do this, and I'll tell you this, Lauren, when I was born and I was left at the hospital, I was labeled special needs. They said I'll never be able to walk, never be able to talk my entire life. Because my mother just walked away and left me at the hospital. So I was just a ward of the state. So they labeled me. And then one time this doctor came over when I was adopted at the age of four, and said, you know what? She's not walking, she's not talking. You know what, hold her, hug her, and love her. 

Give her love. So this 80-year-old woman loved me. She was in her 80s, and she said I'll take that responsibility. And she loved me and I never shut up Lauren. But the thing is, I needed love. So when people label our young people as, oh, they're homeless, they're this, they're that. No, I think love heals. And that's what everybody in my money camp will tell you. I always tell 'em, love means obstacles vanished effortlessly. And we have to get over these obstacles because the only way we're gonna do it is love. But of course everybody says, okay, how many assets under management do you have? My thing is, how many young people, those are my assets under management, those are the greatest assets I could ever have in my entire life. And they're under my management and they're bigger than the assets I have where I work. And that's what really matters. Oh my gosh. So, and wait, Lauren, I'm getting emotional.

Lauren:

I can feel it on this side too. It's such a beautiful story and I'm so thankful for the opportunity to be able to hear it, despite geography, distance or anything like that. I mean, you can feel the impact of what you've done and also just how it's come together and touched so many people's lives. And also just like the legacy of that. I mean, it's not just seeds we've planted yesterday or a year ago but years ago, all that time and effort and cultivating to where it is today to these kinds of stories is just amazing. I'm sure so many people look to you and are so amazed. 

It's absolutely beautiful what you've been able to do. And I'm, like I said, grateful to hear it firsthand. So I know I want to make sure to include resources for those who want to get involved but are there any other thoughts you would share to anyone who wants to be able to get involved or be able to give back to our youth or our community? And like just first steps of where would you start, because it can be an undertaking and then also cultivating all the resources and energy but what would be advice to someone who wants to get involved? 

Gail:

You know, try your local Junior Achievement. We partner with Junior Achievement and they have a stock market contest and of course my children always win, my young investors. But even if you just mentor one person, and I'll encourage everyone in the financial services industry, the lending business, the banking business, whatever, bank on our youth, lend them your time. Invest in them no matter what job title you have. I just think we're more than our job title. Our job title is a servant leader. If we made it to the C-suite, that means we need to have compassion and caring. And that C-suite, we need more of that. So if you made it to that suite, it's time to bring others in that suite with you and give them a seat at the table. 

And then don't look down; the only time we should look down on somebody is when we're helping somebody up. That's the only time. And I think we just can't look down on others. That is just my biggest thing. I think it'll make the world a better place. And the financial services industry, it's the center of our world, but we can bring so much change in this industry. And that's what we're doing this year. We're doing this sport of investing. So I'm adding sports into it. So this year we're doing financial football, everything. Ballers and basketball, we're doing it all. 

Lauren:

Oh my gosh. So amazing. I know, and like you were saying earlier, you're going to send that elevator back down again, right, to bring people up. So yes, I just appreciate all the work you've done, appreciate you sharing your story, and it's so impressive. I've got goosebumps. 

Gail:

It’s really beautiful and I have tears. I'm like, oh my God, I talk about my babies. Like I said, I don't have enough time to talk about all the stories, but they're more than amazing. All my young investors. So I just want them to leave the door open for them and send the elevator back down. So thank you, Lauren, for this opportunity and thank you for everything you're doing. We all need you on our board of directors; what we need is a Lauren. Thank you. 

Lauren:

We all need each other. Like you said, it takes a village. And thank you again for all the work you're doing.

We are excited to announce that Karen Villata has moved into the role of Senior Project Manager, a testament to her dedication to the team and our clients.

Karen’s commitment to caring for relationships and building systems that help us deliver better and more efficient outcomes has proven invaluable.

In her new role, Karen will continue that commitment through mentorship and training of new employees as well as active and ongoing support for the brand coordinator team and client-facing communications. 

We’re excited to see Karen thrive in her new position. Congratulations, Karen!

We talked with Stephanie about:

• Why growth and habit change begins with your mindset
• Clearing the resistance to find your big why so you get to the next level
• How to shift focus and time toward energy-creating and revenue-producing actions

About Stephanie Bogan:

A true beacon for professionals looking to balance professional success with lifestyle success, Stephanie Bogan lived it. Spending 25 hours a week on the beaches of Costa Rica while still earning seven figures, she discovered a sustainable process for breaking through our own success barriers. Stepping out of retirement in 2018, Stephanie answered the call to become founder of Limitless Advisor and help finserv and fintech business leaders create radically successful lifestyle practices. 

Featured Resources 

• Stephanie’s LinkedIn
• Stephanie’s Twitter
• Limitless Advisor Website
• Stephanie’s articles for InvestmentNews
  

Full Audio Transcript

Lauren Hong: Hey Stephanie, we are so excited to have you here today. I was just preparing before the call to learn a little bit more, and holy smokes, as we were just talking about, I feel like you've had multiple lives and each one of them is so incredibly impressive. On top of all that, you're an author, author of The Power of Practice Management. You are a columnist for Financial Planning and InvestmentNews. You've contributed to Kitces.com, Advisor Perspectives, and Financial Advisor Magazine. I mean, the list just goes on and on and on. And then what I love too is that you have this time where you've retired, retired in quotes, you took a step back, and then came back and are just full on it. And so maybe we just start there. I mean, you've built this incredible experience that you've had working with advisors and such over the years. What kind of prompted you to take a step back and then get back into it? 

Stephanie: Well, it was interesting. It was not my plan to unretire. Michael Kitces, who's one of my clients, jokes that this is my encore career. I call it my passion project because that's really what it is for me. So I started my first firm, my consulting firm, when I was 24. I'd worked in an estate planning wealth management practice that worked in the high-net-worth and in particular the ultra-high-net-worth space, which is an amazing way to cut your teeth. And ultimately, really got good at helping kind of build and run and grow that business. And I got invited to speak at some conferences on the financial services side specifically. So I started. My firm sold 12 years later to a Fortune-tier company. 

I always joked that I learned so much about how Fortune 200 companies run that I no longer needed to work for one. And then literally took a year off, went to the beach in Turks and Caicos with our two very young children at the time and did a lot of scuba diving. And then Joe Duran, who was the CEO at United Capital at the time, which has now been acquired by Goldman Sachs for anyone who's not familiar, literally called me up out of the blue and said, I have the perfect job for you. And I thought, how could you know that? And he said, because I created it just for you. And I was like, okay, fine. I have to hear you out. And that's when I basically took over practice development training and client experience. 

The advice model, built out that network and that franchise across our network, right? So really institutionalized and scaling the best practices from business all the way to behavior, which was that in my time at Genworth where we really integrated this practice management offering. So this is where I learned to do things at scale and then really knee deep, as everyone likes to joke, in the apex of my career, retired to the beach in Costa Rica. Because in spite of all of that success, it wasn't satisfying. It was like, no matter what I did, what magazine I was on the cover of, what I was named. Bloomberg asked me to write a book. That's awesome. Mark was like, hey, Steph should write it. I've done all these amazing things and I kept thinking if I just got better, if I accomplished more, if only I would fill in the blank, turn that corner, climb that next rung. 

Somehow it wasn't conscious. I wasn't sitting down and journaling. It was just a feeling. And the reason I retired is because I figured out what it was about and how to solve it. And it radically transformed my life. And the second consulting firm, the coaching firm we have now, that's it. I'll share the secret of course in a second. But really the thing is I felt so blessed that we always had developed this real reputation for results. That was what our brand has always been about. We have these incredible results and like, how are they getting those results so fast, so impactful and with so much time and freedom? Like, wow. 

So for me, the underlying learning there was that success, it turns out, had been a form of significance. Right? Money was a way to get meaning. I was striving to figure out what felt good. And I just hadn't reconciled that I had a really tough childhood. It's a little bit of a long story, but my mother was diagnosed with a mental illness when I was nine. My father had PTSD from Vietnam, insert ensuing childhood trauma, lack of worth, et cetera here. And so for me, success was a way to fill up the cup, if you will. But we all know it lasts for seven seconds. And so when we retired to the beach in Costa Rica, I had no intention of unretiring. I was like, I am done with that. 

I don't have to work anymore. This is gonna be amazing. And it was for four amazing years before I unretired. I did, Lauren, what everybody does when they retire, their soul searching. I googled how to be successful and happy because I hadn't figured that out. So it turns out that all of that success was really my striving for that. If I could just get better, better, better somehow I would be okay. And so I googled that, read an article on mindset, read an article on positive psychology, read an article on neuroscience that led to a paper that led to a research study, which led to years of really copious hours spent studying the science of success, the psychology, peak performance, neuroscience, quantum physics, epigenetics, like really cool stuff in the last 10 years that really provides so much more insight into information about how we elevate who we are, how we show up our work, our wealth, our well-being. 

So I'm sitting on the beach in Costa Rica, right? Drop my kids off at school. I'm in my morning reading time; I think it's groovy. And I'm reading a study from Carnegie Institute published back in 1910, and it's called Education and Engineering. And they, Carnegie, were all about growth and development and learning. They invested a lot. And this particular study was about how to get students in a college, in particular an engineering college. How could you design the curriculum and the experience to make people learn, change, and grow. So there's really a study in how to be successful at learning, changing, and growing. And Carnegie Institute has done a ton of research in that field in the hundred years since. So I'm reading this study and they're sort of summarizing it and there it is that they really determined there were three factors to success. 

In terms of recreating change, sustainable and lasting change in learning, knowledge. And the environment does have an influence on skills. You either have them where you can acquire them. The third factor was psychology. The attitude mindset. And I thought, yeah, that makes sense. We all know about the self-help books, right? Positive affirmations, right? Thoughts, you know, all the good stuff, attitudes, everything. But then the next line really was a mind-blowing experience for me and is ultimately the reason I unretired. And I remember sitting there and reading these three factors. The conclusion was that success in this endeavor was greater than 80% responsible, driven by our mindset or psychology. And I just thought, I barely know what they're talking about. 

Lauren: Right? But tell me more. 

Stephanie: But I was like, we all know this intellectually, yeah, of course it matters. We gotta be, you know, but then here's some hard science around it, right? And I'd been just getting deeper and deeper and well, I really love self-help. I was in a place where I was like, I'm not gonna unretire because people are gonna think I've lost my edge and gone soft. That is the world from which I came, right? I wore the three-piece suit. I was on the cover of Financial Planning magazine when we did our research, I was looking all serious, like oh, I'm so tough and amazing. And now just picturing me on the beach like, yo, what's up? There's no proving going on anymore, right? And so I read that and I thought, wow, maybe this is that thing I have yet to figure out because I've gotten as good as I can get it. 

That other stuff, it's not the answer, right? I've made the money, I've built the brand, I've built this amazing team. I've sold it. Now what, right? So I always refer to myself as like the princess and the pea. Always just keep piling on thinking and it's gonna go away. So I read this and I just thought I have got to know. So that began and basically it has not stopped for right now, about 10 years in. I really basically got a self-designated degree. I just spent hours and hours and hours every day studying this, reading the research papers. And then I had a couple clients who had reached out. So I was applying it in my own life with just incredible results. I went from feeling like I was in the stressed out survival state all the time to feeling empowered and inspired and joyful and right. 

The obligation of work, the imposed right. Perceived, I mean. I worked for four years after I sold my company. So it's not like I had sold the company and just whisked off but it was that perceived obligation. So when I really figured it out, based on the Carnegie study and a wealth of really established neuroscience—Harvard has the Mind Body Institute, they've been massive studies on happiness—what it essentially boils down to is our mindset has the greatest impact on our work, our wealth, our well-being, our business, our body, our bank accounts, our relationship, our relationship to money. Everything that we are, have, achieve, and experience begins right in these six inches. This is the most important space we have. And we spend almost no time reflecting on it. We have, we have, right? We do tests on every part of our body when we're sick. 

When was the last time we all really said, Hey, let's let go. Let's go inside our headspace and see what's going on in there. What's serving me, shrinking me, what's got me stepping back, what's got me leaning forward. And so for me, when I unretired, it was actually a series of weird, odd instances. Bob Vais, a good friend of mine who has been a great supporter and mentor over the years, reached out to me randomly. So I'm literally meditating on my deck at the beach every morning. And I'm like, should I do coaching? Should I do consulting? Should I do 'em together? Should I go back to financial services? Should I do something else entirely? Should I become a third grade teacher? What am I gonna do? Because now I have all this time; I've run the PTA for four years. 

And there's a certain amount of purpose, growth, and expansion we all want to engage in. So I did the decompression and the learning and what was left was a lot of energy and inspiration around sharing and applying what I had learned because it had been so transformational for me. So Bob had reached out, and this is public knowledge and she's talked about it in different podcasts and publicly, Angie was splitting with her partner back at the time. Those can just be tough things to go through. So Bob is like, hey, you've been through a lot of big transitions, right? Could you talk to Angie? And so we had a great conversation. Apparently I said something really impactful, and she felt great about it and shared on a bunch of podcasts, which was very lovely of her. 

She didn't need to do that. But Bob called me afterwards and he was like, what happened with you and Angie? He was like, she was just like really over the top about that call and how helpful it was. And I was like, I'm kind of into this mindset thing. I was like, so I did all that, the best practices, I'm the deep business expert, right? I'm on the magazines, I've written the book. I was like, all that consulting stuff's awesome. All those levers we pull, strategy and operations and service advice and planning and teams and M&A, right? I built the model at United, I built the client experience. I signed off on every deal. I knew that side but I was like, dude, that's not where the shit is. 

It turns out that's like 15 or 20% of our success, like this other 80%. It's more like 90 to 95% according to the science, by the way. By the age of 35, we're a pre-conditioned set of hardwired habits and behaviors, 95% likely to do today what we did yesterday. I call it like those invisible forest fields where you're like, I want more and better, right? And yet for some reason I procrastinate or I don't do it, or I keep making decisions that aren't aligned. And you get frustrated and overwhelmed. And so for me, the decision to unretire, Bob said you should unretire and talk to people about this. And I was like, nope. No way, Jose. And he said why not? You just feel so strongly. It's obviously so impactful.

Lauren: He can see the passion. Yeah. 

Stephanie: I was like, I am a business expert and if I come back, people are gonna think that I've gone to Costa Rica and I've gotten soft. I've become one of those woo woo people. And I was like, I am not one of those moments. There's hard science here. And he's like, well, might I offer a different perspective miss mindset? Because I'm supposed to have this amazing mindset at this point, right? Like all things are possible. And he said, maybe you would be the best person to do it because you have such a reputation on the business side, right? For delivering and knowing what you're doing. He's like, maybe you're the very best person to come back and be like, hey, I've found a better way. And I was like, oh darn. Okay. Maybe. And literally I'd had a couple of clients who'd just reached out to me that I'd worked with privately before, and they were like, could you just make an hour a week for us? 

We would just love to get some guidance around this next phase. I was like, sure. And my new approach is mindset plus methods. That's what I do. You just gotta know that we are gonna really start to dig. And it turns out I've always done it. That's why we got results. I have like five years of deep training and coaching and now I'm like, oh, we're going to integrate this. So we’re the best at consulting and coaching and I'm telling you, game changer. Absolute. So it's not that you can't be successful or you can't elevate your success, it's the speed of inspiration; I call it inspired action. And the joy and ease with which you do it. If you can't build a great business and enjoy the right rewards, then I would argue that's not success, right? 

It's the form of striving and our job with our economics is to elevate our experience, not shrink it. So that's a really long why, because I get so excited that this is my passion project. We have other businesses that generate double digits and annual revenue, right? And I don't spend a lot of time there because this is right when I think about where I wanna spend my time and energy with my time on this planet and the impact I wanna have. This is the most important conversation I can have. 

Lauren: I think it's also one of the hardest conversations to answer, right? Which is what wakes you every day and there's a real passion, right? It's not just sort of a made up kind of thing. So Bob was right. You've brought this incredible rich experience to the table. It sounds like unknowingly just leading also with this idea of mindset. And then I've been able to help that blossom when you took a step away and now that you've been back in it for some time, how do you approach it? What's different about kind of where you were before to where you are now and what would it be like to work with you? What kind of things are you doing that are different? 

Stephanie: You know, it's funny because success really is driven 80% by our mindset. And I'll really break that down in the way our mindset shows up is we can think of having three habit realms. If you've read Atomic Habits, there's a map, right? We are basically right. We have 11,000 thoughts a day. I'm sorry, we have 60,000 thoughts a day and 80% of those are negative. And 95% of those, Lauren, are on a constant replay. Those voices in your head that are like, you can't, you shouldn't, you don't know how, you can't charge that. You've gotta say yes or you'll get eaten by the hungry tiger and die. 

Lauren: All those little voices, they're not your friends, like you said. 

Stephanie: They're shortcuts your brain created, origin stories from your childhood. Literally, I was talking with our group this morning, we were having one of our personal development calls. We do practice calls and personal calls and we were talking about our relationship to money, and how it shows up and either helps us or hinders us. And she was telling a story, the origin story for her, if money is scarce and you've gotta be a saver, was that her mom when she was in private school, had her walk into the principal's office in third grade and tell them their tuition payment was gonna be late cause they didn't have the money. And she was like, I was mortified. She was like, first of all, why was I in private school if we couldn't afford it? Public school would've been just fine. 

Second of all, she remembered feeling so much embarrassment, like, oh my God, something's wrong here. We don't have enough money. And thinking, why am I the one having this conversation? And she just remembers thinking, I never wanna be in that situation again. So she's done really well. That desire to make sure everything's okay and to make a certain amount of money really was part of the motivation to become successful. True. For a lot of very successful people. It's what I call effort and action versus inspired action. So this is the invitation to understand your relationship with your own success and money. Or your desire for more of it. Effort and action. As if we took a piece of paper and we drew a line across it; right above that line draw plus, below that draw minus above that line is everything good and awesome you've ever felt and experienced. 

This is where your thoughts are positive, your brain's right. Your biochemistry's positive, you're in that positive can-do everything is possible. Everything is figure-outable. Your abundance, your creativity, the desire to make the leap, to raise the feed, whatever it is. That all happens above the line. In that positive, empowered, what I call success state. Everything else, which the science says we spend about 70% of our time on a daily basis on, is in stress state. A light version of fight or flight. We're all familiar with this. What happens below that line is everything negative and disempowering. I can't, I shouldn't, I don't know how. Fear, uncertainty, doubt, anxiety, stress, judgment, blame, the need to prove, overwhelm. All of those feelings happen when we're below the line. The issue is we don't recognize that we spend way too much time below the line. 

And it's because we have one brain and two minds, right? Those 60,000 thoughts a day, like a fraction of them are conscious. The rest are happening on a giant play loop in our mind saying, you can't make more money. People with too much money are bad, or hey, there's never enough. Or you can't charge clients that, what will they think? I can't delegate to a team member, right? Clients won't like it. These are the stories that really hold us back and shrink us. And so as soon as we get into a place where we learn how to spend more of our time above that line in success state, we get clear, we get conscious about what's happening and why, and we can start to shift those patterns of behavior. So instead of just responding from a reactive state—a good example is have you ever had a prospect ask you for a discount? 

Sure. Right. Everybody has. How many times have we said yes more than once for most people? And then later we're like, oh, why did we do that? We did that because we acted in that moment, right? All the hardwired thoughts in the subconscious mind and those stories and beliefs are running through our head. And what are those beliefs in this business? All money's good money. All clients are good clients. All assets are good assets. All revenue is good revenue, yes, is the only right answer. Your job is, you get people to say yes. If they say no, you'll get eaten by a hungry tiger, you'll die. You'll never get another referral. Something bad will happen, right? So we don't sit there consciously, like you set a fee schedule, you decided you were worth it. You marketed to people, they spent an hour with you or an hour and a half with you on the phone in a meeting getting to know you. 

And at the end of that time in investment, they said to you, Lauren, we really love what you have to say. There's a lot of value we see here. There's just one teeny little problem. We think there's just an easy little bit less value than you do. So could we have all that love, attention, and awesome experience, the knowledge, picking up the phone with the same enthusiasm as all those other clients that were just not smart enough to ask for a discount. Give me all the best you've got every time you're engaged with me. And feel just as good about it as you do with everybody else. Could you do that for about 75% less please? What would you say?

Lauren: You can't grow. 

Stephanie: If someone walked in and said that to you outright, what would you say? Yes or no? 

Lauren: No. 

Stephanie: Everyone's like, I would say no. And I'm like, except that's not what we do. Every time a prospect asks you for a discount and you say yes, you're essentially saying yes to that. The prospect is saying, I see value just not what you do and I'd like the same as everyone else but I'd like it at a lower cost. And instead of me discerning, deciding if there's value or not, I'd like you to decide if you want me bad enough as the client, we're automatically putting ourselves at a disadvantage in terms of right. Value and trust equity. And kind of right. Who's sitting in the seat of trusted advisor in that relationship? Are those clients we really want? Are they in the best service of the practice? If we're clear that we have a lifestyle practice, 50 to 150 clients are all you need to have a wildly successful practice, have a great life. 

You can get bigger than that if you want to. But if you only need 100 seats and you fill the bus, the coach reframe here, the mindset shifts from below the line. I have to say if I have to make it okay to above the line, I only want clients. That is additive. So I always say that I want really great clients. You cannot drag people to the finish line. We all know those people. Able to see the value, some don't. That's okay. Not trying to change anybody. Just want to find the people who are happy to pay, motivated, able to see the value and happy to pay. If they don't fit that criteria, they're not great clients. You don't want them. Some will, some won't. 

 So who's next? You can always manage your time, energy, and capital to go find a pipeline of great clients. If you get clear, get focused, and get to work. You can't do that most of the time because you're too busy doing too much for too little for too many people for too long. Because we're constantly making these compromises from a crisis of confidence. I have to take that too small client because I'm afraid the referral source will never send me another one. I have to say yes to that discount. Every time we do that, we should be writing ourselves checks, Lauren. So the next time, if your minimum is 5,000 and someone comes along with 3,000, they're not quite there, but you haven't figured out how to say no with dignity in a way you feel good about, which I'll share in a minute if you want me. 

If in real life I said to you, Lauren, you're gonna write yourself a check for $2,000 every time you take on one of those clients and you're gonna rewrite that check every year because keeping that client is actually from a right opportunity cost perspective. You only have 100 seats on your bus. Every seat you fill with someone below the minimum is money you're taking out of your pocket. It's just that we can't see that money yet. So we don't treat it the same way. If I put your ideal practice on the table, then I said here's 100 seats, here's a million dollars every time you follow my advice, you get to keep that pile of money at the end of the timeframe, the year. But every time you take a client below the minimum, you gotta take that money off the table every time you check your email more than twice a day. 

You gotta take $5,000 off the table every time you do something that's gonna compromise your success out of habit and conditioning. And you know what would happen in like three days, you would stop doing it all because the correlation between your behavior and your results would be so crystal clear that your brain would learn really, really quickly. But we don't write ourselves a check for $500 when we check email 17 times a day. We on average spend 3.6 hours doing it. We give up money we haven't made yet. And so that's where we learn. We learn when we reach a pain point or we have a possibility that inspires us. 

Lauren: Hmm. I love it. Oh my goodness. So many things to take in. So it sounds like if there was going to be someone who would partner with you, is it typically someone who is at a place where they want to grow but it's like they just keep hitting walls? Is that fair? Or what would that profile look like? 

Stephanie: Well, the clients we do our best work with are financial advisors, founders who want to build a wildly successful business in life. They want to accelerate their success, gain back their time and freedom and right. Build a hyper-successful practice that gives them the time and freedom to enjoy it. So that's who we do our best work with. We have two different ways we work with advisors. We have a lifestyle coaching program that kicked off this year where it's really about, we call it building a million dollar, a hundred day off practice, which is really just Fridays and eight weeks by the way. We have advisors that are smaller than a million. We have advisors that are a bit over a million. 

It's really about building a lifestyle practice that fits your version of success, that allows you to deliver deep valued clients, build a hyper-efficient practice, get a great steady pipeline of growing clients. And right. Do it while creating time and freedom for yourself. So that program is really about the mindset, the methods like the personal momentum. We like to call it like a 12-month masterclass in building a kick-ass advisory firm using mindset and methods. And then for advisors that are already over a million in revenue, we call 'em leaders. There's more and better, you do want to grow, you have big goals transferring to the next generation. Building marketing engines that aren't dependent on you. So for those seven- and eight-figure firms and founders we have a leaders program that's like a mix of consulting, coaching, and an elite mastermind. 

But irrespective of how we work with firms, it's that mindset and methods approach, which is, are you really clear on what you want to create? We'd like to say when the vision is clear, the decisions are easy because that is the roadmap for change. And in that roadmap for change, you can get really conscious, this is where the mindset piece kicks in and you can say, am I living, being, having, experiencing, earning everything I want and more and what's in the gap? And then we start to look at, hey, do we have the right client base? Are we charging the right fees? Do we have the right systems in place? Are we leveraging our time? So while that is a really big part of the work we do, we'll probably spend 80% of our time, it's almost switched. We'll still spend 80% of our time talking about the levers and the methods and the M&A and the value, depending on what we’re working on. 

But for 20% of the time, it's what we really don’t need. You're smart, you're capable, you've done great stuff, you do great work for clients. What is holding you back from that next level of growth? Oh, it's that we aren't using our time wisely. Well why not? Well because we're control freaks. Why are we control freaks? Oh, that's a mindset issue. Okay. How do we start to shift that? And what we find is when we surface these conversations and we're not like laying on the couch crying, we're just having candid conversations about what's happening behind the curtain in our mind. And man, it's like you part the curtain and it's like the runway clears and the resistance leaves and all of a sudden you get clear, you get focused, you get to work, and you make the changes. 

That's how we get those results we're known for, not just effectively and efficiently but as enjoyably and quickly as we do. When you put those pieces together and you've got a motivator, we call it a big why. Something that really is a value to you that you want to achieve or experience. We call it mojo, it's magic. The kind of mojo you can create when you get really clear, get really conscious, and then create a course of action. And what it really boils down to, we like to say, mindset sits in the space of making sure the tongue in your mouth and the tongue in your shoes are all moving in the same direction. Because we have a tendency to talk one way and act another. And that's the gap that we all sit in every day. 

Lauren: Okay. So we're wrapping up on time here, but if someone was to work with you or to go through this sort of an exercise, what's the number one thing you think would help set them up for success or the relationship up for success? That pre-work, if there's any. 

Stephanie: I don't know if there's pre-work, but there are two exercises I can share quickly that will transform anyone's life quickly if they do them. And obviously there's a lot more you can do both on the business and the personal side. But the first is that line exercise. If you take a piece of paper and you literally draw a line, we're going to use this with time. What's above the line? Below the line? Everything above the line is energy-creating and revenue- producing. I could talk to you for 19 hours, go give a speech, consult with a client. I could just do it and do it and do it. I'm like the Energizer bunny. I love it. It elevates me, inspires me, uplifts me, it is energy-creating for me. 

When it's all over, I'll be like a deflated balloon but while I'm in the middle of it, there's no end to the charge because it's elevating to me, it's energy-creating. So there's really only two kinds of activities, energy-creating or energy-draining. Stasis lasts for like seven seconds when we wake up. Then those stories in our head shift above or below the line. Everything below the line is the opposite of that, it does not enlighten or inspire you. You procrastinate, you put it off, you avoid it, you hate it, you dread it, and at the end of the day it's energy-draining and it's not revenue-producing. It might be revenue-sustaining, but again it's not right in the direction. So our number one job to affect change with respect to our income, our time, and our freedom is to literally stop doing below the line activities. 

Just stop. So I check my email twice a day. It takes me 30 minutes because I have someone who checks it for me. We have all these rules about what goes where, what I look at, what she looks at, what gets processed without me, our system for surfacing any questions or issues. We have a system. I'm not just like, here you go, I trust in you; we have boundaries and business systems in place. There's some real levers you still have to pull but most people get stuck when I just say check email twice a day. They actually panic. Like the stories in your head start just chirping off. Email is not an energy-creating, revenue-producing activity. Here's how I know: no one in 25 years, Lauren, has ever called me up and said I check my email 17 times a day because I just know there's so many awesome prospects and they're dying to get ahold of me. 

We do it by habit, we do it for the little dopamine hit, and we do it because we want to feel productive in a sea of overwhelm and it's a bunch of little wins but it's utterly dilutive. It's stealing at least 30 or 40% of the average person's productivity. So then I say stop checking. And everyone panics like how are we gonna do that? Why don't you create an email policy? I’m happy to share mine. If anybody wants to reach out to coaching@limitlessfa.life, ask for a copy of my email policy. It's three pages long. It details what to do. For instance, if Michael Kitces, who's one of my clients, emails, it goes here; if a random person we like, here's what you like. It lays the whole thing out. So what I say is I just show up and do what I'm told every day. 

I'm not in charge of anything but at a business level I'm clear and conscious, I'm in charge of everything. I set the rules. I'll check email twice a day. Here's the system I want you to follow. So I have total confidence that what's happening is supposed to be happening. We've got a good communication loop. People feel our love and attention. Like, wow, how are they so on? Like here's how we're going to accomplish that amazing experience. Mindset plus method. So here's a great way, here's the mindset piece because your natural behavior, remember, is 95% hardwired to do the same thing tomorrow except I'm going to tell you about the Post-its. You're gonna take two Post-its, you're gonna write a one on one and a two on the other and you're gonna stick 'em on your monitor. And when you check email for the first time in a day, you take off the first Post-it. 

And when you check email the second time in a day, you take off the second Post-it. And after you've removed all the Post-its, guess what you've committed to not do anymore. No more email for that day. So it will literally feel like someone has cut off your hands for a day or two. And then what you'll realize is you're just so much more productive because you didn't spend 3.6 hours checking email. Now if you don't have someone checking and processing, you might spend a little bit more time. But the key here is don't process and produce at the same time you’re processing. If you're doing your own email until you can get someone to do that, right away that 30 minutes in the morning and into the day is processing time. So if Lauren's like, hey, got a quick question for you about our podcast, my assistant will grab it, put it in the today folder so I've got time to review it at the beginning or the end of the day. 

Stephanie: Hey Dorian, just a little quick this or tell Lauren that or all's good, no big deal. Like quick hits things. Or Dorian will be like, hey, I need something from you. Boom. Then away it goes. If it requires more than a few minutes, it's not email, it's service work or it's marketing or it's advice, which means it gets calendared in your time block. So if you want to read about how to take agency, vote for your time. I wrote a great article, I say great because it's like 5,000 words, it's basically a book. It's great about writing for kids, like we're going for it girl. And it basically breaks down from the mindset piece, which is a really reflective, intentional conversation that will really shift your relationship with time. But then how we go from annual calendars to model schedules to like it'll take you all the way down the rabbit hole from big picture to like best practices you can use tomorrow. 

Like the Post-its I love. So if you're interested in doing that, remember when people stop checking their email, what's left is time they have to focus on something. And then that means we get to address the next issue. Am I focused on the right things? Do I actually do my tasks when I'm supposed to? Am I procrastinating and distracted? Okay, well, you know, I don't have email now, so we start to just go down the rabbit hole and keep figuring out what we have to solve for. We're not working over problems anymore. We're working through them because we have the clarity and consciousness from mindset to go, okay, what's really happening here? Why is it really happening? I keep talking about how overwhelmed I am, but I took on the clients, I said what I did, I decided what I was going to charge. 

I make decisions; the only person really in charge of this situation is me. So if I'm in charge of it, that was the mindset thing that caused me—I was like, wow, if this is that big a lever and I haven't pulled it, what's possible when I do? And then I get so excited about it and then I decide to go out and start a business and tell everybody. So that email strategy and the line exercise are super powerful. One of the things below the line should be right checking email, not responding to awesome emails that fall in. Like client retention or something. When do you get clear? I mean, what's on this line? Your business plan becomes really easy. Everything below the line is not awesome for you. 

You draw a line out farther, you draw vertical lines, time horizons, three months, six months, a year, five years, depends on where you are. And everything below your line at some point has to go depending on the time horizon. Hey, I'm gonna give up all the para- planner work within six months, that's gonna go above the line. Who sits on that sheet? Oh, it's gonna be a paraplanner, insource, outsource, part time, full time. Now you're clear and you're conscious. You're conscious about where your time is really going, what's additive and what's dilutive. And you've made a conscious decision to get focused on the things that are energy-creating and revenue-producing, which is the shortest way to make more money and less time by the way, and be happy and inspired doing it. And now you can build a quick business plan, get focused, and get to work. 

So these things that seem so big and complicated and so overwhelming and unsolvable just start to get really clear—about what's happening and why it's happening from a place of slightly more consciousness, not being in that survival stress mode, sitting in that success state where we can evaluate from our conscious Einstein brain, not the caveman brain that's always in charge. What do I want to create in my practice? What do I want to create in my life? What's the gap? What do I need to account for? Okay, now I can work on my mindset and methods with a roadmap for change. So I think that's what Limitless is good at. We're really good at giving you a proven track to run on. We know how to build big firms, small firms, right? All sizes. There's a blueprint for success and we know all those models, and our most impactful work, aside from all the really cool business stuff, is helping people elevate their thinking and their decisions and their actions rapidly to kind of create the results they want with greater ease and joy. That's what I get really excited about. 

Lauren: I love it. And I can see your passion just in how you talk about it too, which is also really inspiring as well. So thank you for sharing so many insights about your journey and how you got to where you are today and also some really great takeaways that can literally be immediately applied. I'm going to have to try this email tracker and I'm sure it's going to kick my butt. So I really appreciate you. 

Stephanie: It's a habit. Our job is to break those habits and patterns to learn how we can sit in that space. Email is just one example. Hopefully listening to podcasts like this and sharing those actionable insights helps whoever's listening. 

Lauren: Absolutely. And we'll make sure to include links below as well to your book and other resources. And thank you again for your time. We'll be in touch. We'll keep the conversation going. 

Stephanie: Yeah, happy to be here. Hope it was helpful. Everyone have a great day.

We talked with Eliza about:

• Human capital challenges surrounding internal growth, redeveloping recruitment practices, and the impact M&A activity has on the firm as a whole
• How strong leadership engagement and detailed implementation schedules are required for strategic initiatives to truly take flight
• Addressing compensation and cost of living adjustments amidst high inflation and decreased revenue as firms move into 2023

About Eliza De Pardo:

Founder and director of De Pardo Consulting, Eliza De Pardo brings a wealth of research-backed insights on the talent shortages and growth challenges faced by financial services firms as they move from 2022 into 2023. With her expertise in human capital management, Eliza educates as well as aids firms in developing strategic implementation practices that coalesce around a growth strategy.

Featured Resources 

• Eliza De Pardo’s LinkedIn
• De Pardo Consulting Website

Full Audio Transcript

Lauren Hong: All right. Well, Eliza, thank you so much for joining us today. I was reviewing your LinkedIn like I was sharing just before the call, and so impressed with your background having worked at TD Ameritrade and then also Moss Adams and holding a number of consulting roles. And then now you've consulted with hundreds of financial advisors and continuing to choose firms I should really say. So I'd love to hear how you got started in your consulting practice and launching it independent of working with some really big names. 

Eliza De Pardo: Thanks Lauren. Thanks for having me along. I always describe it as a very long path to get to this point but I think there probably are defining moments in anyone's career you can point to that kind of got you where you are today in terms of founding a firm. But my career in consulting in the US really started with Moss Adams back in 2006, around that time I was recruited and moved to Seattle from Western Australia and worked alongside Mark Diversion, which was a fantastic experience. That team was wonderful to work with. And then the financial crisis hit me. Many people know Moss Adams kind of closed up their consulting group at that time. And I co-founded FA Insight with Dan Invi, which was a research and consulting firm that exclusively served the US financial services industry. And Dan and I produced a wealth of research together and consulted with institutions as well as larger advisory firms. And we had a great run for many years. And then were acquired by TD Ameritrade back in 2016, who was actually our biggest client at the time. And actually we stayed on with TD Ameritrade. Dan and I both did a lot of work with them, building more research, producing their practice management programs, white papers guide, all sorts of tools for advisors. So it wasn't until the Schwab acquisition of TD that I decided to go out on my own to consult and work independently. 

Lauren: Fantastic. 

Eliza: Kinda a long path. 

Lauren: Yes, with such great experience and connections and all of that. So consulting can go so many different directions, from business strategy to practice management, a variety of things. And for your firm, what are you really focused on or what are themes that come out of your consulting work and talking with different firms? 

Eliza: Well, at the moment I would say the majority of the consulting work in particular is focused on human capital management. We have an area of expertise here. We've done that for many years, but there are so many factors in the marketplace that are creating human capital challenges for advisory firms at the moment so that tends to be where we're engaged. Areas like organizational design, compensation planning, performance management, and all the human capital issues kind of associated with those buckets, if you like, where folks need help generally. And then we do a lot of work in strategic and really supporting firms, larger firms in understanding, coming together around a growth strategy and being able to execute on that strategy. So that's from a consulting perspective and from a research perspective, we like to really cover all areas in the market. And I've found that over my career in consulting the more depth of data you can have available to you to consult, the better that is. And the more consulting experience you have to feed into the research, the better that is for the research. So those two elements are really important to work together. But generally I would say human capital is probably the one area that really films the most challenged right now. 

Lauren: Yes. Can you share a little bit more about that? I mean, it's sort of an interesting time, right? I feel like I've seen a lot of firms that are going through M&A activity or they're trying to hire and find that right culture fit or the right growth structure. What sort of obstacles are you seeing with firms as they are trying to grow or is it just a sort of like a boon of growth? What patterns are you seeing? 

Eliza: Well, this year in particular has been a rough year for advisory firms. The markets have been very uncooperative for the typical firm, and I think most firms are gonna be down in terms of revenue this year. But in addition to that, the acute talent shortage now in the industry is probably one of the most significant challenges for firms in terms of being able to sustain rates of growth, which you could imagine the sort of disruption it causes in a business. When you lose somebody, a talented team member who leaves the business, that becomes harder to replace. It might take you six months or longer to find the right fit to replace that individual. And you've got this kind of gaping hole in the firm for a period of time. And if you experience more than one departure, and it's kind of common at the moment, many firms are sort of struggling a little bit with the retention of talent. This will over time make it harder and harder to sustain rates of growth. And certainly if you're losing talent in the area of business development, client acquisition, of course the impact is felt even more significantly. So the acute talent shortage is a challenge. If we combine that with economy-wide impacts, like very low unemployment right now, very high inflation, all of these things are combining, including what we experienced last year, which was this concept of the Great Resignation back in August, which kind of hit its peak. All of these things are combining to make it extra difficult for firms to grow their pool of talent in a really sustainable way. So I think firms have to be really focused on how they're going to develop talent internally and perhaps change their approach to recruitment to perhaps have more luck in terms of getting the right people into the business. 

Lauren: Yeah, we see it too. I mean, it's like you said, the Great Resignation, right? Which is a nationwide trend that's happening. But I feel like in this industry, regardless, it's really hard to hire; the right value set and the importance of the hire is so critical, right? Cuz it's that client relationship and then holding onto that client relationship for quite some time. It's a relationship-first business, right? So it's not just, okay, check, check, check, have you got this credential but also is there a value set there, and a reflection of how the firm is looking to present themselves outwardly. 

Eliza: Yeah, that's very true and I think firms are extra cautious whenever they're recruiting roles that will be really close to the client relationships. They do have to meet firm cultural values. They have to be really in alignment with the way the partners are running the firm to be a good fit for clients and for the business. So it takes a little bit more effort to try and figure that out when you're recruiting, but I think it's worthwhile taking a little extra time to make sure those decisions are on point, because of course any errors made can be kind of just ongoing, and you don't want that ongoing turnover of talent as we make recruitment missteps if you like. And oftentimes, as you know, I've met firms over the years where their retention of talent has been a real problem. Oftentimes it comes back to their recruitment efforts and how well or not so well they're going through the recruitment process. In some cases they're finding they're getting higher rates of turnover because they're not doing such a good job upfront. 

Lauren: That's fair. So I have to ask you this—it has been a weird year, right? With the markets and coming off of COVID and all of those sorts of things. And as we're going into the new year, if you were to give one piece of advice, especially to C-suite ownership about the look ahead around human capital management, what would be that nugget of advice you would give them that you feel like would set them ahead? 

Eliza: I think as it relates to the growth of talent, I think you've got to invest heavily in your own development pipeline if you like. So creating a career path, showing talent what the future could look like for them in the business, but then investing really heavily in the development of talent, whether that's internal training, role shadowing, mentoring or engaging external trainers to be able to support the development of your staff. I think it's incredibly important given how hard it is to recruit, given how hard it is to retain talent. I do think firms really have to focus heavily on building development programs. But related to that, we're going into performance review time for the end of the year for 2022, and many firm owners and executives are gonna start having conversations around compensation. And I do think that being extra prepared this year for what will be challenging conversations around pay is important if you want to make sure team members feel valued and we're not rocking the boat and there are no surprises, nasty surprises, for anybody. I think you've gotta be extra prepared for your compensation conversations this year. 

Lauren: Yep. That's absolutely fair. And that's actually really good advice because you're right, it's a very competitive market right now and it's easy to be able to have shiny objects with big numbers, but doesn't necessarily mean it's the right culture fit too. So that's great advice. So just learning a little bit more about kind of the ethos you're leading with too, it sounds like there's a lot around positive change but how do you handle that when things aren't so positive or are there things that you try to really lead forward with so when you come into working with a firm that might be an X state, how do you get them sort of to that next state so it's leading versus just cyclical? 

Eliza: Yeah, I think whenever a firm engages any external consultant to come in and help solve challenges, you have to be really honest with them about the kind of effort it takes to be able to drive change in a firm. The firms I've worked with over the years that have really excelled in the implementation of change are those businesses that have really strong leadership who take a very keen interest in the initiatives you're working on. And they do a really great job of communicating regularly with the team. They also have the capacity to be able to do the work that's required to implement the change. So for example, if you undergo a piece of business in trying to transform parts of the business, you don't really have the capacity to manage that actively every week, week on week. And it could be easily an 18-month change program, if you like. In some cases you're simply not gonna make any headway, right? So I really encourage firms to understand the effort that's required to drive the change consistently, making sure they have capacity, making sure they're assigning the right skills to the projects, and they've really also got the appetite and the enthusiasm for it. That goes an awful long way. Yeah, that's definitely, when I look back at those clients who do really, really well in implementing change, they tend to have executives who have the capabilities and who really have the enthusiasm for the work.

Lauren: That makes sense. It's interesting to hear you frame it that way. So from a marketing perspective, we're always mapping the marketing directly to the business strategy, right? Where do we wanna go? And then how are we gonna map that in? But it's really easy to kind of, I think especially for C-suite, right? They can see the vision and it's easy to talk about the vision and wanting it now, but then how do you layer that in so that the change is managed appropriately? And I'd just be curious when you're going into an engagement, because I'm sure there's an umbrella of activity. Are you then timelining that and basically project planning those various initiatives based off of where the firm is at, kind of what does that look like so you can work toward that positive direction of what the outcome is and have clear expectations going into it? That it's not just gonna be sort of snap your fingers and it's all flowers and butterflies.

Eliza: Well, oftentimes that's how strategic planning feels—you go through that process, it's creative, the management and executives love to be involved in it because it opens a door to some great discussion and they're generally pretty excited about where they land in terms of designing the strategy, which is wonderful, but it can wear off unless you gotta keep the momentum going, right? So we do work with the firms in the implementation planning and for some clients, not all, it depends on the firm and their needs, but we will develop what we call a very detailed implementation schedule, which takes, for example, the firm's strategy for the next 12 months and breaks it down into very detailed actions and we assign accountabilities and we set timeframes and then we'll manage that for a 12-month period, in some cases up to two years, to try to ensure that all the project teams within the firm are staying on track and the working groups are getting their stuff done. And we meet on a regular basis to make sure that's happening and provide coaching in the development of solutions along the way. Some firms, however, feel quite equipped to do that themselves, which is great. Others prefer to have more guidance in that area. So it's kind of a mixed bag in terms of how we work with clients to support implementation. 

Lauren: Yep. 

Eliza: Does that answer your question, Lauren? 

Lauren: Yeah, it does. And I mean, I can feel it on this end too because it's not at the company-wide sort of operations level, right? But for us, I mean, if we're, for example, rolling out a new positioning or branding or what have you, it's a culture shift and that does not happen overnight. You can put something up, kind of like if you were to put up a website, but if no one knows about it; it takes time to build that up. If you put out a new brand, people have to know about it for it really to take flight. And that takes adjustments and it doesn't happen over time. And I'm sure it's similar to your work and we're just a little bit of a smaller degree cuz marketing sits underneath business strategy. 

Eliza: You're spot on. It's that communication piece that's so essential. If you've got leaders in the business that are communicating openly, regularly, with the broader team, you're much more likely to be successful in implementing the change. If no one knows about it and it's all happening among a small group of people, then we expect change to happen, it's just kind of unrealistic. 

Lauren: It is. And having the leadership believe in the change and then to have those internal champions to help drive it. So I'd love to hear too, since you've had access to the C-suite at so many different levels, I'm sure of a variety of sizes of firms and what's going on. Is there anything in particular at where we are and in the world right now or what you see ahead that just gets you fired up that feels different or feels like it's a disruption or a trend or what have you, that I think is an exciting potential change for this industry too? 

Eliza: There's nothing that comes to mind in terms of a major disruption. Some of the better firms that I'm working with, they're all strong firms but some tend to be more aggressive in their approach. I think the technology that's available to firms and the marketplace is just evolving so rapidly that there is more of an opportunity for firms to build a tech stack that's going to better shape their business model in the future. I think I'm finding certainly over the years that I'm meeting with executives that are just becoming more and more savvy, more and more capable of doing a better job of deepening their expertise across a range of management capabilities. And that for our industry is somewhat of an evolution.  We've moved from an industry which has been very fragmented in that we've had thousands and thousands of very small players that over the course of time have started to come together and we've seen record numbers of merger and acquisition activity in recent years as firms are folding into each other and we're creating these entities that are growing in scale relative to what we've seen historically. And with that comes deeper levels of capability, deeper pockets, but also deeper expertise and executive teams that are leading their businesses in very different ways to what we've seen in the past. I think the level of management expertise is becoming far more seasoned, and very rich and deep. And some firms really have extraordinary capabilities in this space. And that's an exciting time. I do think there's a lot of wonderful benefits that come from the level of M&A activity we're seeing in the marketplace. And in some cases I do really feel like it's leading to much deeper expertise and greater professionalization within the industry. 

Lauren: Yeah, I agree. I'm seeing that too. And it creates, especially for some of these bigger firms, that deeper expertise or in-house knowledge—something that wasn't always there—so to be able to see that as it could shape and really change that the service offering at large potentially. 

Eliza: Yeah, absolutely. And I think the clients are ultimately the beneficiaries of the fact that these firms are creating scale and have really strong dedicated management, strong advice team structures and are able to deliver a much more advanced client experience for their end clients, perhaps relative to what firms can do otherwise. 

Lauren: I agree. Yeah. Robust experience and just a team of deep knowledge and to be able to have that kind of expertise at your fingertips that's integrated is something I feel like was only for kind of the bigger companies of the day and now it's still bigger in general, but is changing things, so that’s fantastic. Anything else you think would be helpful to share as we look ahead with the work you're doing or the research or conversations? 

Eliza: Well, one of the things that I think I really kind of alluded to before in terms of firms going into performance review season now toward the end of 2022 and dealing with economy-wide impacts like inflation—compensation is going to be a really huge challenge for firms this year and next year. Revenue is likely to be down, expenses as a share of revenue will be up. So I think there's real merit in thinking through your strategy around compensation, but in particular cost-of-living adjustments and the use of incentive compensation to adjust pay perhaps as an alternative to cost-of-living adjustments. I think if firms are going down that path, they need to tread very carefully around making increases that are associated or connected directly with inflation to protect their financials going forward. So to me this is gonna be one of the really red hot issues that firms are going to have to contend with in this current environment. Team members I think across our industry but more broadly, the economy, people are going to be looking to their managers, business owners, and executives to address the pressures they're feeling from an inflationary perspective. And it's upon owners and managers to have a very clear view on how they're going to handle it, to be able to have the right messaging to be able to ensure team members feel comfortable and taken care of during these really difficult times. And to avoid a situation where we create disappointment and departures potentially with talent. So counsel firms in particular to be very careful around the use of cost-of-living adjustments; if you're going to do it this year, use them very carefully, be very clear with team members that cost-of-living adjustments are not going to take place every year. It might be very much a one-off and firms should be really cautious in how much they offer up this year in particular, just to make sure we're controlling fixed costs given all the other pressures on revenue generation this year. 

Lauren: Yeah, that's right.

Eliza: That's probably my key kind of round out 2022. 

Lauren: Yeah, that's really good advice, especially since we finished one political season, at least here in the U.S. but more of that will come and markets up and down and so it's great advice. I appreciate you sharing a little bit of what you're seeing inside of the C-suite and some of those conversations. 

Eliza: Yeah. 

Lauren: I appreciate your time and thank you so much for all the work you do and for supporting so many firms and giving some of those tips, especially as we look ahead for the new year. So thank you again.

We talked with Nancy about:

• Unlearning and learning how to lead in today’s virtual workplace
• Opening space for collaboration to increase opportunities for team growth and cultural shifts
• Leading recruitment from true, authentic values that are reflected by the organization as a whole

About Nancy Lyons:

CEO and founder of Clockwork Interactive, self-proclaimed rebel, and digital space leader, Nancy Lyons wants leaders to embrace being one to many and not shy away from picking up the phone to connect with their employees. Moving into the future, she sees huge opportunities for building and reinforcing company culture by embracing the digital workplace with proactive rather than reactive changes.

Featured Resources 

• Nancy Lyon's Linkedin
• Nancy Lyon's Website
• Work Like a Boss by Nancy Lyons
• Clockwork Website
• Clockwork LinkedIn
  

Full Audio Transcript

Lauren Hong:
All right. Well, Nancy, thanks so much for joining us today. I’m very excited to hear from you. It was so funny actually. So just an introduction story. Our team, a lot of them are word nerds, and I remember we were first kind of googling, learning a little bit about you, and I think on the front of your website it says something weirdo, I don't know if it's certified weirdo or whatever, but we loved it. And I think what was so cool is it's just embracing that you like to nerd out, like to enjoy different things, like to get in deep topics. And so it resonated, right? And even the name of Clockwork, the company you founded, it's got a spin on it. And I'm so excited to hear from you and that kind of originality and to be able to pull that out a little bit more. So why don't we start with Clockwork? How did it get going? I mean, what was the spark for it to be able to pull out that kind of work and what you do around culture? 

Nancy Lyons:
Sure. Well, first of all, thanks for having me. I appreciate having the opportunity to visit with you today. Clockwork actually started because we had started another company. So my business partners had started another company and that company was acquired. But we had been building websites since 1995, and that company actually started as an internet service provider. And this was before the big telcos came in to monopolize the space. And so there was actually room for small businesses and entrepreneurs to start up in the internet space. So we were offering internet services to end users and then started building websites. And then that company was acquired. And I think the whole purpose of that acquisition was to add digital services to a larger enterprise. And I think we all know what happens in acquisitions, and you could make it that much more complex by factoring in the idea that this happened when the internet was not well understood and was not yet entirely mainstream. 

Nancy:
And so the value of the business they had acquired was not really understood or shared by all, the reality of it wasn't shared by everybody. And so it made for a really sort of tense situation. And so we decided we wanted to leave and start over, not a startup, but a start over. And we had learned so many lessons and the industry had come such a long way in such a short amount of time that we decided it was an ideal time for us to open our new shop and really reflect everything we had learned through all the trials and experiments that we had done in the very early days of the internet. So we started Clockwork in 2002. And we had some great clients that carried over from our last story that helped us bootstrap it. And it was really just a handful of us in our basements at first, and then we moved into an office space. And I wish I could tell a more exciting story than that. I think we just saw that there was this tremendous need for leadership in the digital space when it was so murky to navigate for anybody that needed it. 

Lauren:
Yes. And talk about digital space right now, right? We're all hyper-digital post-COVID. I think we'd be fools to think it's gonna totally return to how it was. But at least if you look at trends in hiring, right? I mean, remote first is a leading trend and people like that, right? And it changes the culture. And I love to hear, I mean, you've been building that, the world of the internet and kind of why culture and what are you seeing today with company cultures and being hyper-digital? 

Nancy:
Sure. Well, I'd like to share for the record that I think the internet changed everything a long time ago. And so the reason that I got into the space where I find myself talking about culture and leadership in the context of culture and hyper-digital cultures is because we saw immediately how the internet was gonna change—not only industry but the landscape in which industry functioned, right? And so I started talking about the impact of the internet and internet thinking on workplace culture from the very beginning. And in fact, I have an interview in a magazine, I don't remember the name of the magazine but from the ‘90s, when I had no idea what I was doing. And they said, what do you want your legacy to be? And I said, it's not gonna be websites because anybody can make a website, but it's definitely gonna be my voice and the impact that I can have in moving the needle toward the future of work. Because I think people have to, especially leadership, have to let go of their ideas, and the security they have in this idea that the way it's always been is the way it should be. 

Lauren:
Yes. Can you talk and or maybe even share some examples for how you are seeing culture played out in a virtual environment, built out in a way that it transcends the physical space? 

Nancy:
Well, I think, again, I think that's something that most organizations are struggling with large and small. I mean, even my company, and I just said I've been talking about this since the ‘90s, struggle with it because we just ended up having a staff that really preferred to be together. We've always been hybrid, we've always had remote options, but on most days, the majority of the staff was in the office. They had the option of being wherever. And in fact, at one point I expanded and added another little campus and I said if people would just go home, we wouldn't have to get more office space. But they were sort of on top of each other. The pandemic forced the opposite and our folks who had always had flexibility were suddenly having to adapt to these ways of working, even though that option had always been on the menu. 

Nancy:
I think what we see a lot is leadership is attached to the way things have always been because that's how they know how to lead. That's what they're used to. That's what they feel control over. And what they observe validates their assumptions, right? When they are in spaces and they see these impromptu, sporadic conversations or connections between people, it validates what they know about physical space. The truth of the matter is those sorts of exchanges can still happen, but people have to take the initiative to make them happen. So what I find in terms of my own speaking is it's really about reminding the individual of their own agency or power in the context of culture and their actions and their micro actions. And that means everything from saying, Hey, are you okay? 

Nancy:
In the middle of a Zoom or chatting, sending somebody a direct message in the middle of a Zoom call or whatever it is to have these momentary connections that fulfill a sort of that energetic requirement of culture. And I think we find ourselves talking about individual responsibility and the lack of judgment. Now we have a change practice inside of Clockwork so we're doing it, we're having these conversations on a systemic level. And I would say it's as much about unlearning as it is about learning. We have to sort of unlearn patterns and behaviors that force these systems to be the single truth. And we have to have the gumption or the courage to want to recreate systems, which when we're thinking about it seems like it should be easy, but in practice it's that much harder. 

Lauren:
Yes. I love how you are helping coach CEOs and C-suite teams to help to change those patterns, either in the way they're communicating or the systems they're deploying to help make sure the culture is still alive and well even if there isn't a virtual environment. 

Nancy:
Right. I think what we're finding is very frank, very frequent conversations, and then a real audit of messaging is critical. And then a communications plan; the thing that I tell people all the time is leadership is just repeating yourself over and over and over again. Because I think it takes a while for people to believe the change. And it takes a while for them to integrate change and even a healthy response to change into their thinking. And I also think including them in the process of getting there is really important because they're hoping for it. I haven't spoken to a single human being who didn't welcome an absence of a commute, who didn't welcome more time with their family, who wasn't happy about not having to worry about what to wear, at least from here down. I think everybody welcomed the decrease in stress around really trivial issues. But stressful issues all the same. And I think including people in the process so everybody can get past their sort of innate desire to protect their routines and just explore what's possible and the truth of the meaning behind those possibilities and the opportunities behind those possibilities. So I think it's about talking through them, exploring the data, and including the broader staff in the actual movement. 

Lauren:
Yes. And taking that leadership initiative to be inclusive, repetitive. And it sounds like you were saying earlier in the office, you can observe the side conversations, but it's being intentional about having those side conversations or reaching out and such, especially in a leadership role. 

Nancy:
Mm-hmm. 

Lauren:
What about for middle management? Are there things you think middle managers can do? Cause that's such a tough position to be in, right? I mean, you've got one person here reporting to another person here you're trying to port to and you're trying to work on client success. And are there things you see managers can do that do require a little bit more potential hand holding coaching leadership when we're not in that kind of same training realm? 

Nancy:
Mm-hmm. What I see a lot from middle managers is this need to replace whatever dynamic they experienced in person with one-on-ones. So suddenly their schedules get eaten alive by trying to have these personal lengthy meetings with their teams. And I actually think one of the things I try to recommend more often than not is just really opening those conversations up because it gives the air of transparency. It's more opportunity for people to get together in a group setting, whether it be virtual or in person or hybrid and really start to understand how the others think and create more opportunities for collaboration or, I mean, listen, I don't think we're fooling ourselves if I even so much as suggest that business can be democratic. 

Nancy:
But I do think somebody's gotta be responsible. Somebody's gotta be the buck stops here. But I do think really making space to hear how people are working through some of these new challenges, there's a knowledge sharing aspect to those group conversations. There's a collaborative planning aspect. I think there's an opportunity to not be reactive, which is what we've been for the last three years, just reactive. And really start to be proactive and plan for what I believe is inevitable, and that's future disruption. If middle managers use opportunities to be less one to one and more one to many and really open up more space for collaboration and be planful I just think there's huge opportunity for growth in the teams. There's huge opportunity for shifts in the cultural energy. I think people feel more seen and valued. I just think the emotional response to that as an opportunity is tremendous. 

Lauren:
Yeah. Not to mention the buy-in as you were sharing earlier. It's that idea of, well, it goes back to the leadership piece of it too, right? The repetitiveness of it, but then also having people buy into what we're trying to accomplish as a team. So fascinating. Are there tools that you see helping to assist with this? I mean, there's Slack and there's Asana, and there's email and there's all these kinds of things. Is there any technology that you feel helps to either incentivize or helps with communications too? 

Nancy:
Yeah, I mean, let's say there's no shortage of technology right now. I mean, I certainly see there's a tool for everything. In my organization alone, I mean, there must be 10 or 12 platforms that we're reliant on right now from Miro and its virtual post-it notes to Slack, which we can't function without, to Confluence, which is where we share sort of lengthier data and Trello. I think there's tools that are a little more lofty, some sort of design thinking to map out some of the conclusions or the experiments that we agreed to. So I think making sure that everybody's heard and everybody has an opportunity to participate in how we make actual decisions and make actual evolution or innovate, I think some processes are important, whether they're a digital tool and we're doing it asynchronously, or whether it's a process or a methodology or an approach. And we're doing it synchronously. And to be quite honest with you, I am a big fan of the good old-fashioned spontaneous phone call. 

Lauren:
Yes, I know. We need more of that. I feel like it's been a lost art. 

Nancy:
We do. Yeah, we do. I actually beg people sometimes to just pick up the phone. And in my keynotes recently, I've just been saying to people, what's innovative? Getting to talk to a person. Totally innovative. Oh, true. 

Lauren:
Yes. 

Nancy:
Right. And what do we all want? It doesn't matter how comfortable you are with technology, how long you've been using it. We've all had those moments like an airline reservation or something where we hit a digital brick wall and wouldn't it be nice to just talk to somebody? I think that shows in most contexts, and especially as we're exploring how to improve our cultures and adapt to what's in front of us. 

Lauren:
Oh my, this is so true. It's easy to hide behind that technology wall. So just that extra little effort to pick up the phone can feel like a big leap perhaps. Okay. So we've talked about internal communications, right? C-suite, middle management, things we can do there, technology for implementation. What about even before the hire or putting out that energy about what it's like as a culture, as a company culture, before someone would be hired to be able to really to attract the right talent to join the team. What kind of conversations are you having around that? 

Nancy:
Yeah. I think they're multi-layered. I'm a big believer that your values have to be true or real and not aspirational or marketing speak. The expectation is that any recruitment effort would lead with values so people see themselves in those values. I ask a lot of audiences when I'm talking to them, like how many of you know your organizational values? And it is always shocking to me how few people do. So leading with values is of critical importance I think. I'm also a big believer in peer-based hiring because I think it gives people a real glimpse in. We have a panel of their peers in the discipline, outside of the discipline, and then there's a leadership conversation. And I think it gives people a view into how we work, how we respect each other, how we give each other space, what we value as individuals and how that is valued by the broader team. And so I do think that a process that's fair, that's not too lengthy but is substantive, feels like there's been an investment on both sides and includes an actual view into the humans you would work with, whether it's the team, the department, the division, what have you. But again, the values play a giant role in hiring strategy, and I think most organizations forget that. 

Lauren:
That's so true. And it's gotta be intrinsic. So like you said, this authentic piece of it, what about just putting my marketing hat on, cause I know we're having these conversations about communicating culture and reinforcing culture, at least on social media. I've seen, especially with bigger organizations, that for part of the onboarding process, there's sometimes even a culture handbook or culture training video or something that's entertaining but it's kind of an introduction to things that make the company unique. Are you seeing that kind of thing? Or is that more you feel like a new hire will just kind of go through a 90-day cycle and start to feel and live and breathe it? Or what are you seeing companies do as they're introducing the company culture so it can be lived out and carried on? 

Nancy:
Yeah, I think it's all of the above. I think there are folks who have such a hands-on onboarding process that I think the hope is that real relationships will develop in those first 90 days. I know for us, we always send a welcome package to the new person's home before they start. What is also really interesting, and I'm only saying this for the first time now, is that it’s an organic social media opportunity because almost everybody takes a picture of it and puts it someplace. It's just got like a hoodie and a notebook and their laptop and a glass with some swag so it's not anything enormous but there's some stickers, nothing extravagant but they immediately get a sense of sometimes the playfulness of the organization. 

Nancy:
Sometimes I talk about having a culture of care, and they sense that pretty immediately. I absolutely think that oftentimes when we think about it, like, what can we do that's entertaining, that gives people a sense of the voice and the tone, we're trying too hard. And I also think we overinvest in those moments and production values; it's sort of like social media. You can invest a lot in a video and it's not gonna have any more impact than the actual experience or a raw moment or a candid shot. So for us I would say it's different every time except for that welcome package. 

Lauren:
That's fair. That's absolutely fair. I know we tell that to folks too. Cause it's like, do we need to do a full production? I'm like, there is a place for that, but there is also a huge place for authenticity and the non-perfect sort of look and feel of everything. So it's a balance. 

Nancy:
Absolutely. 

Lauren:
Well, we are about at time here. Any other thoughts? I know you've got a book and other resources, places that you think might be interesting for folks to learn more about your work or other just helpful sources of information around company culture. 

Nancy:
I do have a book. If you don't mind, I'll plug it real quick. 

Lauren:
Let's talk about it. We’ll put up a link there. 

Nancy:
Okay. Work Like A Boss is an interesting book because it's not written for leadership. I think every business book you read is written for managers, leaders, what have you, right? Work Like A Boss is written for everybody else. And it's really reminding people that they have agency and that the secret to a healthy work culture is approaching work without judgment of other people. We have this tendency to wanna be comfortable, and the way in which we are most comfortable is by really only accepting or being open to people around us that are like us. Because the more similar you are to me, the less tension that creates, the more comfortable I am. And this book actually opens up the idea that we have power to shift how work feels. And culture is really that thing. It's not the gimmicks, it's not the perks. 

Nancy:
We mix up things like free lunches and sodas with perks. And it really is that palpable energy. You know it when you feel it and it suggests safety and it suggests openness and some amount of purpose. We create it for each other. And one person can change, can make or break an entire work experience. And in this book, I talk about how fear plays into why we act the way we do at work sometimes and how kindness is super easy and it's very different from nice. And how all of this begins with owning your own baggage. Like really recognizing sometimes I'm passive aggressive and this is what I can do to change that. Because it doesn't make other people feel good. So the book has a little bit of tough love in it. 

Nancy:
It's a super accessible book. It's kind of fun to read. And I think that it's eye-opening because we have all been trained in the ways of work. I also call that the cult of work. And right now, the situation with COVID forced us to react differently, to respond differently. And it continues to sort of call on us to show up differently. It's not just virtual or physical. There's a lot of nuance to it. And each one of us has a responsibility to show up strong and creatively for it. 

Lauren:
So true. So well said too. So I'm assuming it's on Amazon.

Nancy:
Any place you would buy your book, all you have to do is check it out. It's there. 

Lauren:
I've added it to my reading list here. 

Nancy:
Excellent. 

Lauren:
Thank you. I feel like we could just keep this going. We could go for a lot longer. I just really enjoy hearing about different approaches to work and culture and onboarding and authenticity and leadership training, all kinds of pieces. So I also really loved to hear a little bit about the book. And it's not just about, like you said, leadership, C-suite or management or what have you, but it's this intrinsic idea of empowerment across the board.

Lauren:
Well, thank you again for your time and for sharing a little bit more about what you do and bring to the table. I'm excited for others to hear more and get that book.

Nancy:
Thanks a lot. It was a great conversation. I appreciate you having me.

We talked with Julie about:

• How to build client engagement by getting into the client’s headspace
• Why it’s important to have a niche that is authentic to you
• How generational differences affect client experience

About Julie Littlechild:

Twice named among the 25 Most Influential People in Financial Planning, past member of the National Board of Financial Planners, and author, Julie Littlechild believes growing client engagement requires advisors to deliver not only what clients expect but what they need. She discusses how shifting conversations to truly understand each client’s headspace creates a personalized, high-impact service.

Featured Resources 

• Julie Littlechild’s LinkedIn
• Absolute Engagement LinkedIn
• Absolute Engagement Website

Full Audio Transcript

Lauren Hong (00:00):

Thank you so much for joining us today. I was just reviewing your LinkedIn and all the things you've been involved with and it's so impressive. So you were on the National Board of Financial Planners for several years and then one of the 25 Most Influential People in Financial Planning. I think it was twice. Is that right? 

Julie (00:22):

Yeah, I think so. 

Lauren (00:24):

And the list keeps going, influential practice management awards and then an author and I'm thinking, oh my goodness, you've had such an incredible career that has not only been recognized but you’ve been able to add so much to this space and what's going on. And so I really appreciate your time and I'm excited to hear from you today. 

Julie (00:45):

It's all right. I think if you just stick around long enough, people have to acknowledge you for something. <laugh> That's been my strategy all along. 

Lauren (00:52):

<laugh> Well, it's working and I love to see great work acknowledged; it is so important. So I wanted to give a brief introduction just for folks who are listening. So it seems like the sweet spot here, a lot of it is around practice management and all kinds of research. And I'd love to hear more about that. We'll start there. I know you've looked a lot into client engagement. You've talked with tons of advisors and firms about kind of their secret sauce and what works really, really well for them. And what's kind of the umbrella? What are you seeing with firms over the years and growth and what works? 

Julie (01:34):

Yeah, so our focus is very much in that spot of client experience and client engagement. And you're right, we gather our insights, not just from talking to advisors of course, which we do every day, but from an industry investor study we do every year, and then our day-to-day work, which is gathering input on behalf of advisors from their clients. So every day we're given this glimpse into that particular piece of it. And you know, the whole concept of engagement has changed a little over the years. And we're really on a soapbox at the moment because I feel like we've been using this word, client engagement, for so long that it hasn't had much meaning for people frankly. Everybody has their own definition of what engagement is. And so they're right. 

Julie (02:34):

I guess if there's no agreement on a definition. So a lot of the work we've been doing lately, just to kind of give you a little context for that question, is to say, well, what is the definition of engagement? Can we actually have a clear definition? Is it defensible, as in does it actually lead to business outcomes that we're trying to achieve, in client outcomes? And then is it actionable? So when we've been looking at the research over the last year, that's really where we've started digging in and we've been able to really demonstrate that yes, there's a definition. The definition we use as an engaged client is the most satisfied, five outta five, and they've provided a referral. And then when we dug into that, we could see that they were more loyal, they provided all the referrals, they were more satisfied with investment performance as in like the flip side being they felt like they were getting more value from advice and clients were more confident about their financial futures when they were engaged. 

Julie (03:40):

So all of this began to get us saying, let's get really specific about what drives engagement so we can be more tactical about it. And we absolutely see some correlations in terms of what drives it. But a lot of it for us is sort of boiling it down to this idea that we can all deliver great service, understand expectations, meet or exceed them, you're good to go—but if you really wanna engage at that deeper level and achieve all of those benefits we talked about, then it's much more about leadership. It's about the conversations you're having with your clients, the kind of communications you're sharing, and the extent to which the entire experience is designed, intentionally designed, to help them based on what's important to them. And so this is what we're sort of seeing. It's kind of big picture questions but then we try to drive down to what does that actually mean, tactically mean? 

Lauren (04:44):

And what's important to them, specifically meaning the client, not necessarily the employee that's servicing the client. Can you maybe give some examples of the tactics? And you talked about leadership. Are there things you're seeing firms doing? Is it the kind of value sets in how they're communicating or are there specific technologies they're deploying or things that are helping with that client experience, however we're defining it? But really client experience as it does map to ROI. I’d love to hear a little bit of that side, of the tactical implementation. 

Julie (05:24):

Yeah, sure. So when we think about it tactically in that sense, there's definitely examples and you mentioned technology because I think technology is allowing us to do a lot of this more effectively now. So that's certainly a big help. But I would give examples like, if you wanna deliver good service, you understand your client wants to meet twice a year and you reach out twice a year and you set a meeting and you have a good review, and you look at their plan or portfolio and you follow up and you do all of the things they expect you to do; that's good service. It's what they expect. When we're seeing the shift to engagement, it's advisors saying, I'm gonna do all of that but what I'm going to do is try to co-create the agenda by getting incredibly good at teasing out what's on your mind, how you're feeling, your concerns, challenges, and aspirations. 

Julie (06:21):

And then we're gonna build the agenda around what you wanna talk about, not just what I wanna tell you. And so these are kind of subtle shifts. That's one example. And the theme of co-creation is sort of big in our world. Maybe a more granular example would be, we could have an advisor who has a great content strategy, right? Sending out great articles, writing blogs, doing all of that, in touch regularly. But maybe it's more generic content. Maybe it's content the advisor thinks the client should find of interest. And then the shift we're seeing is actually asking clients what they are concerned about, what their interests are, and then being able to personalize the content that is shared based on that. So it's like tweaking how we service in a way that's much more client-centric. 

Lauren (07:16):

Yeah. Less about sort of your own headspace and more about how do you get in the headspace of your client. 

Julie (07:22):

Exactly. 

Lauren (07:24):

Basically serving up things of value for them. We see that all the time too. Especially content brainstorms, things that we may be passionate about but that doesn't mean the receiving party is. 

Julie (07:38):

Well, and I think we have to be careful even in how we ask the question, cuz I've seen people talk about that and then maybe they get a little better and say, well, you know, I'm gonna think about the last questions my clients asked, that would be good content. Which is true. I think, if these are the questions you're hearing but often the questions you're getting from clients are still quite investment-focused or planning-focused. They're very granular and tactical and that's great. It's never gonna hurt, right? But if you could almost look inside your client's head and understand what was stressing them out and what they were worried about and what they were talking to their spouse about that night or the night before, and provide content that got at that stuff, that's a whole different level. 

Lauren (08:24):

Yep. I absolutely respect that. Easier said than done. 

Julie (08:29):

Of course <laugh> there are ways to do it, but easier said than done for sure. 

Lauren (08:32):

Absolutely. We talked a little bit about client engagement, leadership serving the clients, but then there’s the team, right? Cuz it can't just be a solo advisor who’s spearheading; it's gotta be the team. Are there certain things you're seeing that help create that communication and cohesion within the team to be able to have leadership at various levels besides just holding that to one person to help and not just be the rainmaker, just the CEO, but really bringing out that culture. I'd love to hear if you're seeing ways that's carried out through training or what have you. 

Julie (09:10):

Yeah. I mean, to me, this is a big question. It's an important question because when that kind of culture is infused all the way through and it's being reflected in every part of the business, that's pretty powerful. And I think some of the challenges we see are helping the team understand how their role connects to this idea of leadership, right? Because it's one thing, as you say, to sit down and say, well, I'm meeting with a client, we're talking about their life. The leadership opportunities might be a bit more obvious than the receptionist or if it's a paraplanner or somebody who's in the background. And one of the best ways I've seen is simply helping the entire team formally invite input from clients. 

Julie (10:04):

Sharing that with the whole team. So if clients feel concerned about their children's future right now, how could we each lean into that? How can the marketing team find content on that? How can the receptionist find an opportunity to maybe chat about the kids when they come in? How can we ensure we build that into the plans? Right? It's almost like taking the key challenges and concerns and then looking at how that might filter throughout the entire organization. That takes intention and it takes focus. It's not just gonna happen but I think it's a powerful exercise. 

Lauren (10:46):

Absolutely. Oh, I love that example. You can see how it can transcend. It really bleeds into all different parts of the organization too. 

Lauren (10:56):

Shifting gears a little bit, obviously it's been a kind of crazy few years with COVID. It's been stressful, it's been chronically stressful, with so many political and cultural things, all kinds of things going on. So, the markets, etc. How is that or has it impacted the clients you're working with? And has it changed really the definition for client engagement or just really shifted at all what folks are doing?

Julie (11:31):

It has, I think significantly, and I would argue that there's always some formance of uncertainty in our lives. It's always impacting clients and what they're worried about. It might not be a global pandemic, but it could be a family health scare, right? Sometimes it has the same impact, just at a very different level. So I think a lot of these concerns have been there but the pandemic and all of the other uncertainty you point to has really put a spotlight on how clients are feeling. So we've been thinking a lot lately about how client mindset actually impacts the experience or should impact the experience. And even in the research, when we went out this year, we were very focused on not just what they expect but what they need. 

Julie (12:29):

And that took us down the path of asking them about client self-confidence, which is a sort of index we track, the impact of uncertainty on their lives, the concerns they have right now and how they're experiencing stress in their lives right now. And it's probably not any surprise that it was pretty significant <laugh> and even to this year, right? It's not as if it's gone back to where we were, right? And so I think for those advisors who have leaned into this idea of mindset may influence experience, it might not impact how often I wanna meet, but it's going to impact what I wanna talk about when we meet. It might not impact my expectations of the material you send me, but I'm gonna be much more impacted if you can send me the right stuff, right? 

Julie (13:27):

So it's been a fascinating ride for me looking at this data because the other thing I'm very aware of as you look at it is that how I'm feeling can influence my relationship. So for clients who are less confident in their financial futures, satisfaction tends to be low, loyalty tends to be lower, all those metrics. So there's like this positive or negative halo effect on the advisory relationship. And that to me is an opportunity, right? For advisors to really lean into, understand, not just say how are you doing but to tease that apart, understand how clients are feeling and have those different conversations. Cuz we're seeing the impact just all over the place right now. 

Lauren (14:17):

Yeah. I love actually to hear about shifting the conversation too. You gave the example of how are you doing or other ways to be able to say how are we doing for you? How can we support you? Those kinds of things. Are there further examples of personalization that help to kind of carry through what you're seeing in those emotions, either that the individual's carrying out or that you're seeing globally or through the data that you can be more aware of that relationship to create more personalization? 

Julie (14:55):

I think one of the things that almost gets in our way with this issue is that I think as human beings we're not particularly good at articulating how we feel, right? I mean, it's not always the problem of the advisor. Sometimes they're trying to do all the right things, trying to understand how clients are feeling, but you know, if you asked me if I sat down with my business, how are things going? I'd say, yeah, they're good, you know, it's good. The kids are good, everybody's like we're not dealing with any major crises but it wouldn't take them scratching too far below the surface to understand, I've got a 13-year-old son and a 90-year-old mother and this and that, and all of this impacts my ability to hear advice, to take action, to think reasonably in a way. So I say all that because I think we have to be very clever about the kinds of questions we ask. So if it's just tell me how you're doing, you might get a good, fine. But if we can ask even things like can you rate your level of concern on the following things right now, I'm gonna give you a one to five, that's easier than sitting down and seeing if there’s anything you're concerned about, right? 

Julie (16:13):

So if we can tease those out, learn if the plan reflects what's most important to you right now? These are the kinds of questions that are preludes, I guess, to deeper conversations. 

Lauren (16:28):

I love that too because it all maps up to what we started the conversation with, right? Which is around how do we define client engagement and how is that directly related to ROI and what are ways we can do that subtly, either individually or through technology and such. So I have a few more questions for you here. I know we're covering a lot of different things but they’re all related. So in marketing, of course, we talk a lot about really finding your niche, right? And I'd imagine if you're looking at a firm at large being more personal if you know a particular niche, if you're working with Gen X or whoever it might be, right, you can create an experience for that audience. I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. Do you see a lot of firms really going after niches? Or is there a way that folks can choose a niche to be just more authentic or really to help support with client engagement being the end goal, right? Cause that impacts retention, that impacts the bottom line. 

Julie (17:43):

Yeah. I mean, you've hit on so many of the issues cause I know you see this I'm sure as well, but one thing for clarity is I absolutely believe that this is a critical part of engagement. That to deeply engage we need some focus. Otherwise, diffusion is the enemy of engagement if we're just trying to be all things to all people. I think you can deliver good service to a lot of different kinds of clients. I don't think that's a problem at all. But if it comes to engagement and leadership and some of these other issues, you've gotta go a lot deeper. So that's my bias <laugh> here. I would also say this is probably one of the hardest things for advisors to do. 

Julie (18:36):

So you see that too. It's when we talk, everybody nods and says, I get it, I get it, I get it. And then a fear of some sort takes over. It's like, what if somebody walks away? Or what if my clients think I'm not focusing on them? Or what if and what if and what if? And I get that too. But if I set that aside for the moment, <laugh> I do believe if we can really sit back and say, what if every minute of every day our team was focused on the needs, goals, and aspirations of a defined group, wouldn't we come up with some really cool ideas and ways to support them? And couldn't we build the entire business around that from the form of our communication to the frequency of our contact, to the content, to the digital presence, to all of that? 

Julie (19:40):

I mean, that becomes such a powerful attractor. One of the battles I guess that we see is partly in definition so I'm certainly a believer that there's a difference between a target audience and an ideal client. So I could say I'm targeting business owners doesn't mean I target every business owner. My ideal might be a certain net worth or an investment philosophy or something. But I think we conflate those two things so much and as a result, we get a lot of people saying, yeah, I have a niche and it's clients with a million dollars or more, which we all know is not a niche, it's just a wealth. That's an ideal client and that's fine to have a target. So all of that makes it harder. 

Julie (20:36):

So I think there's some work to be done. It's like, why am I there? Who truly energizes me? Who do I wanna work with? Who do I wanna support? Who do I wanna build this business to support? What's gonna get me bouncing out of bed every day? Cause I just either love to work with these clients or do this work. I think specialization can be an itch as well. I mean there's challenges but we've seen it work more times than we can imagine. 

Lauren (21:05):

And to circle back, at least from what I've seen it take, it really does take leadership to be able to make those play calls and champion behind them and put resources behind them but when it happens, it can be very powerful. 

Julie (21:18):

Yeah. One of the things we've been talking about is to use the word authenticity earlier. We talked to advisors a lot about this idea of what we call the authenticity test. The idea is first of all, that whomever you're focused on has to be authentic to you. Right? So if I say the words, I'm targeting clients with a million dollars in investable assets and more, does that truly resonate for me? Is that inspiring to me at some level? And then if I flip that around, if that was the welcome sign on my door, <laugh> would clients go, oh my gosh, they understand me? And of course they wouldn't in that case. But I think as soon as it's authentic to you, if you can understand why you wanna target a certain group, usually that's the answer. 

Julie (22:15):

Maybe it's even if you picked a group like pre-retirees, which some people do and we kinda laugh cause it's so big. But I actually believe if you did it well, like they have a set of needs, they have certain concerns, there are demographic issues, there's a lot that you could pick up and if that's what compelled you, helping people through that phase of complexity and anxiety for some in their lives all of a sudden, that's very compelling. That can be the sign on your door. 

Lauren (22:48):

That’s so well said. It gets me excited <laugh> but you're right. Because it's coming from a place of authenticity, which fuels passion. And so it's all interconnected. 

Julie (23:06):

Yeah. 

Lauren (23:08):

Okay. One last question—we're about at our time here—but one last question just for folks to get a look ahead. I know you're doing research and you've got your finger on the pulse on a lot of different topics. Anything you’d like to share related to that? Just kind of look ahead or trends that you're seeing? 

Julie (23:34):

Yeah, for sure. We do this every year because we can see trends and doing it over the last few years has been a real gift because it's given us this look into mindset. I guess the one thing I've noticed that I might mention as a way to think about change in future is that a lot of the change we saw in the last few years has been to do with the pandemic, right? So obvious things like we shifted in terms of how we meet with people, all of those kinds of obvious things have changed at the same time. And maybe we weren't noticing because the pandemic was so all-consuming that the demographic shifts were having the same impact, so younger clients under 45 wanna meet more often, want virtual, tend to use social media, and these trends aren't going away. 

Julie (24:34):

Right, <laugh> even if you believed we'd go back to how some people felt pre-COVID, which I would argue is not happening either. We've got these demographic shifts and some of the most significant differences we see are based on age. If it's younger, it's about expectations. But if it's older it's actually about concerns and challenges and mindsets. So I think we need to lean into demographics and think about if and how that means we need to segment our experience a little differently going forward. Because it's very clear we're not going back to the way it was. 

Lauren (25:13):

That’s so interesting. It makes me wanna dig into the research and hear more of what's going on. 

Julie (25:18):

<laugh> 

Lauren (25:20):

Well goodness, thank you so much for your time and for all the work you do. And it's really fascinating to hear not only what's happening today with the pandemic and what you're seeing but also just that bird's-eye view of what you've seen over the years and what works and what doesn't. So I appreciate your time. 

Julie (25:40):

Well thank you. Appreciate it.

‍
We talked with Stephanie about:

• Spearheading the advancement of women in the financial services industry by partnering with Females and Finance Career Center
• How career path priorities for financial services employees have shifted toward flexibility and increased pay
• Attracting and capturing talent through an expedited hiring process

About Stephanie Roberts:

Owner of Humans Being Resources, a “full-life cycle recruitment” firm with a specialization in finding professional talent for the financial services industry, Stephanie Roberts has firsthand insight on how companies can elevate their employee searches to engage top talent in today’s market. With over 12 years of experience in recruiting, she helps companies modernize their hiring process. Stephanie’s work with the F&F Career Center has helped expand opportunities for women in the finance industry.

Featured Resources 

• Stephanie’s LinkedIn
• Humans Being Resources
• Humans Being Resources LinkedIn page 
• F&F Career Center
• Females and Finance
• Females and Finance LinkedIn page

Full Audio Transcript

Lauren Hong (00:02):

All right. Well, Stephanie, we are so excited to have you on the show today. I have been following a little bit about what you've been doing with the Females and Finance group, and I've been enjoying looking at your website but I don't want to steal your thunder. So why don't you, if you don't mind, just share a little bit about your background, your company, and the kind of work you do—just to set the stage here before we get into a little bit more of the nitty gritty of this engagement with Females and Finance. 

Stephanie Roberts (00:32):

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I appreciate you having me today. As you indicated, I'm Stephanie. I'm one of the owners of Humans Being Resources, a recruiting firm that specializes in the financial services industry—financial services meaning also insurance and banking as well. It’s honestly kind of a funny story how I got into it, but I like to give a lot of credit to my mom, because she is a human resource director, so I kind of grew up in that environment. However, I honestly started my college career going into fashion merchandising. So I always thought I was really thrilled with fashion and wanted to own some stores. I actually owned a couple boutiques in my previous life and then got into staffing, worked at a temp agency for a little bit, and then went into more of the financial services side with a large FMO. And then, just kind of having that entrepreneurial spirit, my husband and I put our heads together and started HBR based on his background in operational <inaudible> and my experience in recruiting within financial services. So we created our model and have been here for a little over six years now. 

Lauren (02:01):

Wow. Well, just with our clients, I know it's a challenge. We all constantly hear it's a challenge to find top talent. There's an alignment of values and expertise, investment, philosophy, just depending on the type of business. So why finance? Is it just because of that background or seeing the need. I'd love to hear a little bit more. 

Stephanie (02:25):

Yeah, so I would say a lot of it started just from the relationships I had already built and just kind of my knowledge within this sector. When we first started, we didn't really niche ourselves in financial services. However, that is where the majority of our business was coming from. I'm sure you're familiar with financial firms and financial advisors—they don't go into business to be a recruiter or a hiring manager. They're great at the financial advice side of it. So as we expanded, we were just really seeing that there was this big need within financial services. So then we finally decided, let's just drill down and say this is our niche and this is what we specialize in and that's what we're gonna do. And that's exactly what we do. So we've kind of just kept it that way. And we work all across the United States with various firms. 

Lauren (03:27):

And what kind of placements are you typically? Are they senior level? Are they partners? Are they more operation support? And are there trends you're seeing? 

Stephanie (03:40):

Yeah. So we do all positions up to a financial advisor with a transferable book. So we'll do a receptionist, we do marketing, client service. They can be licensed, unlicensed, para planners, portfolio managers. So really huge variety, up until we get the call that they want an advisor with a book. That's when I have some good partnerships that I'll refer that business out to other firms. That's kind of where we draw the line, but we get a lot of calls for junior advisors right now. So maybe they're looking for someone who has two, three years of industry experience and they're licensed. They don't need to bring a book over but being in that advisor capacity is the role that individual would take. 

Lauren (04:30):

That's fair. It's a different kind of engagement when you're at that relationship if you're looking to roll over a book. So if I can just shift gears a little bit here. I'd love to hear more about the Females and Finance career center partnership you've established. I thought that was really intriguing, an interesting hub. How did that all come about? I mean, obviously you've got this dynamic background with what you're doing and there's an alignment of a shared vision or audience per se, but tell us a little bit more about how that partnership and that platform came about. 

Stephanie (05:01):

Yeah, so I have to give credit to one of our repeat clients who we've built a really good relationship with out in Georgia. She referred me to Cheryl, and Cheryl as many people know is just a fabulous connector, very involved in this industry and definitely someone you want to know and really build that relationship with. So Meredith had made that introduction and Cheryl and I actually had several conversations prior to the career page actually being launched. So she has these great big visions and she had this vision to get this page going and asked if we would be interested in being kind of the sponsor and kind of head that page. And we said absolutely. Because it obviously goes very well with what we do. So that's been launched for probably a few months now, maybe three. 

Lauren (06:01):

My gosh, is that just a few months? 

Stephanie (06:02):

Yeah. So that page is fairly new but we're excited. It's definitely taken off and she's done a great job of promoting it. 

Lauren (06:14):

And how are you sourcing the opportunities and managing it? And I mean, even the platform that was chosen, how did you sort of get from concept to launch? What happened in that in- between phase? 

Stephanie (06:28):

So that all goes to Cheryl, with the mastery skills she has. She is the one who put it all together and it's a good opportunity for HBR to be exposed to some other positions that might be out there. And if one of her members needs assistance in just not having a good process to follow, we're there to lean on and to help. So she really manages that page and does it very well. 

Lauren (07:03):

Okay. So then she's really managing it, setting up the software, all of that. And you're acting as that sponsor to then help to further support with the actual platform. And are you sending potential candidates there or what kind of relationship do you have with supporting that in your sponsorship engagement? 

Stephanie (07:24):

Yeah, it's a good resource for potential candidates but it's also a good resource for clients or members of the organization. If they have an open position, like I said, they're more than welcome to engage with us and our services if they don't want to go through that process themselves, or it is even available for a member to just post their position out on her site. And then, between her and I and other members, we do a lot of promotion and marketing of that page and really promoting those open jobs. So it's always being updated. I constantly update her on new jobs we're working on. And with members who want to work on it, maybe putting jobs out there. So it's good for candidates, but also for members and clients. 

Lauren (08:21):

Okay. Yeah, that's fair. I think it's a pretty dynamic platform and it feels like it fits a real pain point right now. Are there other platforms? I haven't seen anything quite like that. I think FPA has some options, if I remember correctly, and other groups, but not quite like this or more all encompassing sort of broader financial services. 

Stephanie (08:43):

Yeah, one of the things I really like about Cheryl and Females and Finance is how much she does to really promote it and market it, and I think she's grown to well over 3,000 members now. 

Lauren (09:00):

Great. It's amazing. Yeah.

Stephanie (09:03):

She definitely wants to make an impact in this industry and really just kind of change it and bring a lot more workforce into the industry as well. She's doing a great job, so we're excited about it because the idea is to really try to expand and get more individuals into this industry. 

Lauren (09:26):

Yep. That's fair. To take a step back and transition a little bit. I’d love just to hear what you're seeing in the industry, in this industry at large. It's a different market we're in right now, you know? COVID, post-COVID, all sort of gray, right? And work from home, and the challenge of finding top talent and all sorts of things. Are you seeing that in this industry? What sort of trends are you hearing or how are you helping, frankly, companies stand out to really find that right fit? I'd love just to hear more about the pulse you all have on the market or the industry at large. 

Stephanie (10:06):

Yeah, you're right. It is very tough. The past couple years, the market has definitely shifted and changed. I feel a lot of candidates put priority over certain things that maybe they wouldn't have in the past. So while pay definitely is still important, there's still a high importance for candidates to have good balance. And so that remote option or hybrid, that's a big one right now we're hearing a lot. And you do still get firms that are insistent and know they want them in the office. So it definitely shrinks your pool of candidates when you're not willing to offer that flexibility of hybrid or remote. So I do feel that since COVID it's made remote more desirable for, for many reasons. And then like I said, going back to pay and there's just so many jobs open right now. 

Stephanie (11:06):

This is where I really explain to clients that it is important to use a resource like us to really do all the work for you because it can be very time-consuming when you're trying to do all the recruiting and sourcing. Anybody can post a job on a job board right now but more than likely it will be lost because there's so many jobs posted on these job boards. So we definitely use job boards, but where we find a lot of our success is through our recruiting and the sourcing and just cold reaching to candidates. So what else? I think you asked me a few questions. 

Lauren (11:47):

Not really. Just those trends you're seeing and the industry at large. So that's helpful though, just to hear a little bit more about what you're seeing on the employer side. Anything you're hearing on the employee side, or things employees should keep in mind in this job market too? 

Stephanie (12:06):

Yeah. So as far as the employee side, we typically do work more from the client side. So when the client has the need, they reach out to us and then we start that process. Through my networking and the different relationships I have, individuals reaching out, I do get a lot of great experienced candidates who are ready to leave their firm. And oftentimes they're ready to leave because of either the lack of flexibility or their pay. Some companies have not adapted to the new environment we're in and needing to increase their current employees’ pay. So we have seen a lot of employees leaving for better pay, but also the better flexibility and just overall opportunity. A lot of individuals want a career path. 

Lauren (13:01):

That's fair. Yep. And along that kind of vein, I always have like the marketing lens on, right? We talk with a number of companies about how to promote what your company's like from a value standpoint, and it could be awards like best places to work or just company happenings, if there's fun events or just more showing off that company culture. Do you have any tips for employers about ways they can help an employee get to know who they are, either through their interviewing process or even just before they were to engage with the company, to really help warm up that prospect or even for them to self-qualify if they're a good fit? 

Stephanie (13:47):

Yeah, so as part of our process, once a client engages with us, we schedule what we call a client intake call. And that's where I really go deeper with the client in regards to the position, but also their firm and their culture. So I really want to learn as much as possible about their culture and just the overall opportunity they have for their candidates. And we really use that information as we're engaging with those candidates. But of course, like you said, then it does fall on the client once they get that candidate in front of them to really sell their firm and why someone should work for them. 

Lauren (14:30):

Yeah, that's fair. Are there any things you're recommending, like if they've got a top candidate, they talk with other employees within the company? Or even like sort of onboarding processes? Or are those things that your team doesn't touch? Just curious. 

Stephanie (14:51):

So we don't get too involved in those types of conversations. We'll give a little advice through my conversations with candidates, learning what are some important things to them as they're looking at new opportunities. So I share that with the clients. Training definitely is one of them. But I think that's a great idea that they meet with some of the other team members. We have some clients who will maybe do dual interviews. So it'll be the advisor and then somebody else in the interview as well. The thing is, they just want to keep in mind to not drag that interview process out too far. Because especially in today's market, candidates go very fast. So if they're going through multiple interviews, you're gonna lose them. They're probably going to go down the street to your competitor. 

Lauren (15:49):

Out of curiosity, I'm sure it changes by the kind of role, but I'd just be curious if there's an average for where timing typically falls. Or even an average for more of like a partner or a more senior hire. I'd be curious to know the length of time. 

Stephanie (16:10):

So we tell our clients on average eight to 10 weeks. But like you said, there's so much that goes into that, so it's kind of hard to really drill it down exactly because location's going to be one, what they're offering, their overall offering the salary, and just kind of how they compare with their competition in the market so that really can vary. But we do tell them eight to 10 weeks. 

Lauren (16:35):

Okay. That's fair. And then any tough conversations or things behind the scenes that you think even before you get going that you're having with your clients? Maybe job descriptions, if you've seen more unicorn job descriptions or other things like that. I'd just be curious about things that might help employers as they're thinking about who to hire and how to put this together and all of that. So what do you wish they would've done? 

Stephanie (17:07):

Oh, that's a great question. There's definitely a lot that comes to my mind. So we do help them with the job posting; we create the job posting based on the information they give us. So one thing we have found is that advisors or firms have different titles for basically the same position. So we really give our advice based on our experience and what title works once we post that position. So they all kind of like to name it different things, but it's all essentially the same. So that's one of them. I would say the toughest conversation really is salary. And really just educating them on what the market is like today, that we are not in the same way we were in three, four years ago. 

Stephanie (17:58):

Pay has changed a lot and if you want to attract top talent, you really have to make sure you're in line. And again, that's part of our process too. We do research based on their area and these certifications they're looking for and their minimum requirements, and we'll provide them with what our recommendation is. And then timing is a big one, really making sure they engage with us, they are committed to the hiring process. So really setting time aside to put those candidates through an interview and ready to offer when the time comes. So those are kind of the top ones, I would say, but we really try to keep them as involved and try to take as much off their plate as possible when they go through our process. 

Lauren (18:53):

Yeah, That's fair. That makes sense. And I would assume not only routine timing can be involved, but then you think about the holidays and all these other things that come into play, right? That just can throw a cycle off. So very good. Well, any other closing thoughts before we wrap things up here? It's been so fun to hear about your role and relationship with the Females and Finance group and all of that.

Stephanie (19:19):

I don't have too much else to add other than we're here to help. Again, like I said, we want to just save clients time, let them focus on what they're good at and then outsource the other parts of it. It's what we specialize in. We're a recruiting firm, so we know where to find good talent and really will help kind of get them through that process. 

Lauren (19:48):

Well that makes so much sense. Easier said than done, right? It's all about the people, right? So having a good team is just absolutely what it's all about. So thank you so much, Stephanie, for your time. Really appreciate you sharing more about not only your day to day, but the relationships and also how you're giving back to the community as well. And really I think helping to support and create a platform to help recruit talent and share opportunities. So thank you again.

Stephanie (20:25):

Thank you.